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Author Topic: Calcium precipitation  (Read 9227 times)

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Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2017, 10:15:35 »
Unfortunately, nothing has changed. Still dosing 660 mL. Calc at 410 Mg at 1320.

The only conclusion I can come to is this batch of BRS CaChl is not full strength

Offline Wall_Tank

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2017, 10:23:27 »
Bad/contaminated Test kit?

Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2017, 10:27:39 »
I took my kit to Brian’s yesterday. Test kits were ok.

Offline Wall_Tank

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2017, 11:52:09 »
How do you mix you two part?   What is the calcium chloride to water ratio?

I’ve Not looked into the DOS,  how does it add the two part?  Do the both feed at the same time?  What is the feed rate?   Have you verified the feed rate vs the actual output?

Offline lazylivin

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2017, 12:00:49 »
Adding the pump was more for alkalinity percepation. Regarding strength, your using the powder to mix it yourself at 2.5 cups per gallOn? If yes no strength issue. I would wait another day to see if any change in alk. If not take the co2 scrubbers offline to see if that is issue. If it is then consider bring it back online with less media and only one of them.

Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2017, 12:18:34 »
How do you mix you two part?   What is the calcium chloride to water ratio?

I’ve Not looked into the DOS,  how does it add the two part?  Do the both feed at the same time?  What is the feed rate?   Have you verified the feed rate vs the actual output?
The BRS CaChl tells you to mix 2.5 cups into 1g if water. I use distilled.

The DOS is basically 2 separate pumps in one unit. You have a Fusion interface that allows to to set interval times. You tell it how much you want it to dose in that interval and it calculates how many mL’s it will dose and it what time frame. Like every 12 minutes it will dose XXmL’s. I was wondering if the dosing was off so I took a medicine cup and put it under the dosing tube and checked a couple times. It was dead on...

With all things stable and the required dosing to maintain Calc so high, I’m wondering if the BRS CaChl powder is not diluted somehow. That is really the only thing left that makes sense at this point. I have a new container of CaChl and just mixed a new batch. I’m going to add it today and then monitor Calc over the next day to see if anything changes.

Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2017, 12:19:39 »
Adding the pump was more for alkalinity percepation. Regarding strength, your using the powder to mix it yourself at 2.5 cups per gallOn? If yes no strength issue. I would wait another day to see if any change in alk. If not take the co2 scrubbers offline to see if that is issue. If it is then consider bring it back online with less media and only one of them.
Alk dosing has not changed either since adding the pump.

Offline lazylivin

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2017, 14:33:59 »
 it’s pharmaceutical grade calcium chloride.  So there’s no dilution, pure calcium. What we do know is it’s precipitating due to multuple damage pumps, hard sand and carbonate buildup on equipment.  At this point I am leaning toward higher pH  from CO2 scrubbers as the likely culprit. Taking them offline for a week or two would be a good test.

Offline Wall_Tank

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2017, 15:58:02 »
The addition of the Ca part, should not cause precipitation. Do you see white cloudiness when the Ca solution is added? Ca precipitation is normally caused by high localized pH when the Alk portion is added. What is your pH running?  If you have high pH, then Soda Ash is not what you want to be dosing, you should be dosing Baking Powder based product.

How are you burning up pumps? Are your lines becoming blocked? You do have the output of the dosing lines above water.....dripping into the sump.

Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2017, 18:32:47 »
The addition of the Ca part, should not cause precipitation. Do you see white cloudiness when the Ca solution is added? Ca precipitation is normally caused by high localized pH when the Alk portion is added. What is your pH running?  If you have high pH, then Soda Ash is not what you want to be dosing, you should be dosing Baking Powder based product.

How are you burning up pumps? Are your lines becoming blocked? You do have the output of the dosing lines above water.....dripping into the sump.
No. There is no white cloudiness when I dose Ca.
My pH daily swing is 8.05 - 8.4 during the week and lower on the weekends when everyone is home.
I believe the pumps got clogged when my Mg dropped to 1000. It could have been low for a couple weeks. I noticed a gradual increase in the amount of Ca I had to dose to keep it at 380-400. I was only testing Mg about every 2 weeks at that time. The precip built up really bad on a return pump and on the inside of my flow pumps. Causing the impeller to stick inside the spindle therefore causing the pumps to overheat and burn out/motor freeze. Luckily my skimmer is a beast and powered right through it. I took it apart Friday and cleaned it. There was calcite build up everywhere. I’ve been keeping my eye on the heater, skimmer and I’m not seeing any Ca buildup. Also, the sand is not clumping anymore. So, I am assuming that I am past that type of Ca precipitation.

Offline Agame43

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2017, 21:03:20 »


" Ca precipitation is normally caused by high localized pH when the Alk portion is added" (Wall Tank) - Interesting, I run high pH as well but the only place I see precipitation is at the air inlet hose to my skimmer and the air inlet hose is plumbed to a window for fresh air. I need to clean the skimmer inlet once a month for B/U. I run the ESV 2 Part in my system.

  Following

Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2017, 21:34:33 »
Your high ph system was the first thing I thought about when WT mentioned that. I’m glad you popped in with your experience.

As Brian suggested earlier, I think I’m gonna take the Scrubber offline for a bit to see what happens. I have to wait until next weekend though because I know my dosing is going to change drastically and I want to be home to monitor it.

Offline Humphrey

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2017, 21:45:33 »
Is that a 75 gal?  Your tank is beautiful, but 360 ml is 6 DKH/day ALK-  highest I’ve ever heard of is 5/day though I am sure there are much higher in the world.  Maybe Lazy’s 125?

I definitely not a chemist, but I think it’s too much ALK and calcium together.  Both together at these levels are precipitating each other with your relatively high PH an consequential lowered supersaturation?

Don’t want to subscribe to something that would screw up your tank, but what would your tank fall in a day if you didn’t dose for a day?  This should be your maintenance amount employing the BRS reef calculator (google).  Put in your desired level and current level and dose both parts at the same amount.

If it’s too scary to break for a day, since calcium now 400, consider going to 2 ALK points per day (100ml in 75 each calcium and ALK) or something more conservative.

I’ve done a lot of everything with successes and failures so I’d certainly welcome so other input here but that 360ml ALK seems too high too.


Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2017, 10:02:20 »
Is that a 75 gal?  Your tank is beautiful, but 360 ml is 6 DKH/day ALK-  highest I’ve ever heard of is 5/day though I am sure there are much higher in the world.  Maybe Lazy’s 125?

I definitely not a chemist, but I think it’s too much ALK and calcium together.  Both together at these levels are precipitating each other with your relatively high PH an consequential lowered supersaturation?

Don’t want to subscribe to something that would screw up your tank, but what would your tank fall in a day if you didn’t dose for a day?  This should be your maintenance amount employing the BRS reef calculator (google).  Put in your desired level and current level and dose both parts at the same amount.

If it’s too scary to break for a day, since calcium now 400, consider going to 2 ALK points per day (100ml in 75 each calcium and ALK) or something more conservative.

I’ve done a lot of everything with successes and failures so I’d certainly welcome so other input here but that 360ml ALK seems too high too.
Humphrey, I appreciate your insight and your compliment on the DT.
I don’t know if I’m the only one using a CO2 scrubber but I’d like to know if someone else has experienced high ‘presumed’ consumption while having one online. I will say that just prior to adding the Scrubber, my consumption was roughly 40-50 mL/day. When I added the Scrubber (and probably 15 more SPS) the dosing just gradually went up and up. I was stable right before the Mg drop that caused all the problems. My max pH is only 8.4 and I only get it that high maybe once a week. Most of the time it’s around 8.32 max. Comparing that to Agames daily 8.4 only adds more confusion. Unless there is an unintended consequence with the CO2 media. However, I have not read that anywhere. I do know that my pH will drop to approximately 7.75-8.0 daily swing when I do. We’ll know more this weekend when I take it offline.

As far as taking the dosing offline, I am too afraid of the alk/Calc drop and messing things up even more...

Offline Humphrey

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2017, 12:58:26 »
Slow is almost always best anyway :).  Best do one thing at a time anyway.

It will be interesting to see when you take the scrubber off-line. 

If it doesn't work you can always try something else, and I don't think there's any harm with the precep other than a more frequent vinegar bath for your mechanicals.

There is a "where is my precipitation coming from" by Randy Homes Farley somewhere out there, and he's got some threads in R2R for high calcium uses.



Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2017, 14:41:18 »
I read some forums that he posted on today. Once I understood that precipitation cannot escape into the atmosphere (thanks Brian) but will always attack heaters and pumps, I am anxious to get the pH lowered. RHF said significant coral growth and significant precipitate occur at pH 8.4 and above. I do not want to be replacing $300 worth of pumps for the little bit of growth I may gain.

When I get home, I’m turning the skimmer off. I also have undetectable nutrients so this will kill two birds with one stone. I’ll turn it back on when I go to bed and turn it off again when I leave for work. We will see what happens to consumption/precip tomorrow

Offline Agame43

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2017, 22:35:14 »


If moving slow is what we are suppose to be good at would you just reduce your media in the scrubber by say 1/2 - 2/3 and wait that change out to get an idea of maybe where this may end? Taking it all off line seems abrupt to some extent? My pH peak average this past week has been 8.45 daily. Keep us posted, good luck!!!

Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2017, 10:00:55 »
I did. I took 1 canister that was almost spent offline. Other canister is still full. I left my window cracked as it has been for a couple months and I only turned the skimmer off overnight. It will be on until I get home and check alk/calc.

Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2017, 19:38:07 »
Update:
Skimmer only on from 6:30a-4p
pH topped out at 8.31

Alk stable with no change needed to dosing. Daily still 340 mL

Calc 470. Backed dosing off 60mL again to total daily of 440mL

Mg at 1290-dosed 4oz 2part

I am going to leave the skimmer off through tonight as well. One positive in this is my phos was up to .08 today.

Offline docsky

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2017, 10:40:59 »
Not sure if it adds any value but I run a 400g SPS system loaded with corals most colonies are larger than a basketball. I also have 3 5"-7" clams and i run around 180 Mils of each of both ALK and Cal a day.
My 2 part is mixed to the BRS standard strength.

Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2017, 11:05:48 »
Not sure if it adds any value but I run a 400g SPS system loaded with corals most colonies are larger than a basketball. I also have 3 5"-7" clams and i run around 180 Mils of each of both ALK and Cal a day.
My 2 part is mixed to the BRS standard strength.
What is your daily pH swing?

Offline docsky

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2017, 12:10:05 »
8.01 to 8.47 average is 8.23. I will note that i haven't calibrated my probe in a very long time. I also don't run a heater on my tank so my temp swing day to day is from 76 to max 82 average is 79.

Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2017, 12:36:19 »
Thanks for your info.

Trust me, I’m perplexed and frustrated with this issue. I really cannot figure out what is driving the excess consumption/precip. My pH is not high enough to cause it, Mg has been spot on for 3 weeks now.....I just don’t know

Offline docsky

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2017, 13:39:35 »
If you stop dosing for 1 day.... lets say you test a 6pm today and then test tomorrow at 6pm. How much does each level drop? That should be how much your daily dose needs to be.

Way back when i was first adding two part i was hand dosing a 1/2 gallon of each a day. It wasn't until i got a doser and started to use the BRS calculators before i really got a handle on what the tank was actually using. Prior to that i think it was just binding with its self and making "sand" plus i was going through a lot of pumps the extra 2 part forms on the heated motors and shafts causing issues.

Offline SweetReefOH

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Re: Calcium precipitation
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2017, 15:16:19 »
I whole heartedly agree with that. The calculators are how I mix and initially started manually dosing 9 months ago. Then I purchased the Apex and DOS. Then I seen how low my pH was. Then I installed the CO2 scrubber and cracked a window. Then my dosing started going up rapidly and then topping out. Then my Mg dropped to 1,000 and screwed everything up.

I’m trying to get the dosing down to the “normal” range but I don’t want to do anything too rapidly. This morning I closed the window and I’m taking the Scrubber offline tonight in order to lower the pH some more and see what that does to consumption/precip.

I can’t just stop dosing. The numbers would fall too quickly and potentially kill the Corals. I’m just not willing to take that chance right now.

 

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