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arbee

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Battle with Marine Ich
« on: March 23, 2007, 10:06:07 »
and I am losing. :(

Since March 6th I've been battling a horrid outbreak of ich. I set up a new tank, 125 gallon in Feb. Transferred into the new tank was 2- 20 gallon  reef tanks. One had a watchman goby, false perc, lawnmower blenny and a royal gramma. In the other 20 I had a yellow tang that was basically in QT for 5 months--the only fish in that tank.
I had bought a PBTang and 9 chromis that was in a 50 gallon rubbermaid tote in QT for 5 to 6  weeks. The tangs were healthy, no signs of ich or problems with eating.
Since keeping saltwater tanks, I've never had an outbreak of this until now.

After 3 weeks in the new tank, the PB showed signs of ich. I started treatment immediatly with Kich-Ich and the tang showed improvement the next day. I've been following the treatment instructions, added a 18w UV and also a 9 watt uv yesterday. The outbreak overtook the gramma and the yellow tang three days ago. The powder blue tang is covered.
This morning my Royal Gramma died.  :'( :'( :'( (yeah, I cried--he has been with us since the beginning--2 1/2 years ago.)
Now I know that I should have done something different. For the first time since I've had him, the PBT did not want to eat this morning. I'm not sure what steps to take next.
The system has a  Euroreef RS-250  Skimmer, a 55 gallon sump/fuge. Liverock from small tanks and 50 #'s of base rock. All new sand except for the couple cupfuls of live sand from the established tanks to seed.
The readings are normal, except for elevated nitrates.
Amm 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20ppm
pH 8.4

 I've not used the skimmer since starting treatment, but have used filter socks that I change daily.  I treated the tank again this morning (for two days in a row) with the Kich Ich. I still have a 20 gallon established tank set up with lr and ls and some cheato that I've not taken down. I was thinking of using some Metronidazole tablets and putting the tangs in there for treatment. ?
I do also have an empty 50 gallon acrylic that I could fill with aged sw to use for hospital tank and do hyposalinity treatment. I have an aquaclear filter I could use for filtering or a HOT Magnum that has a sponge cover that has been on the 20 established tank. I don't know if this will be enough for filtering.
I also have a bucket of ro/di water with a bubbler to oxygenate since this morning in case I need to do a FW dip--?
Which way to go? Any suggestions?

Offline aquavista99

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2007, 10:35:44 »
My powder blue arrived with ich.....treated the fish  with hyposalinity  at about 1.009/1.010 ppm  for two months in a 29 gallon QT. It was the only fish in my 75 g reef connected to a 40 gallon sump w/ an oversized skimmer. After I returned the PB to the display, a few months later, the fish had ich again. I attached a helpful link on hyposalinity treatment below.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

I ended up selling the fish after the second round of hypo treatment and I think moving the PB to a  much larger system (150 gallons or more) with lots of mature live rock is the key to keeping this difficult to keep fish alive and healthy. The PB tang is one of the more difficult marine fishes to keep in captivity (IE, one of the notorious "ich magnet" species of surgeonfish).

 I attached an updated picture of my old powder blue who now resides in a friend's reef in Columbus.

BTW, I have not had any luck with treating PB tangs with copper or copper related products. This type of tang is very sensitive to copper treatments.




« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 10:47:36 by aquavista99 »

Offline micki

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2007, 12:10:10 »
Rita, I'm hoping Joel will be able to chime in soon.  He can steer you in the right direction.  FWIW, I had my powder blue for almost 2 years with no problems.  After I had the outbreak in teh 150  he got sick and died along with a few others.  I've always heard they are hard fish to keep, but until this outbreak I never had any problems with him. I hope to get another one some day. 

arbee

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2007, 13:31:12 »
Hi Micki,
The Powder Blue Tang died about an hour ago.
I just finished setting up the 50 gallon.

Offline Joel

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2007, 13:46:04 »
I have never found Kick Ich and similar products to work well if at all. I am betting the reason your fish looked better the day after starting treatment is because the parasites on your fish matured and fell off to reproduce. The meds do not treat the parasites living on your fish, they kill their off spring during their free swimming stage.

Get the fish out of the tank and get them in a stable system where you can use an ionic or citrate type copper ASAP. (except for the powder blue tang - more on it later) It is imparrative that your water quality stays correct in your quarantine system, test and correct as needed. I would suggest that you buy Sea Chem's Cupramine copper tratment & buy either Red Sea's or Instant Ocean's copper test kit. I suggest these kits because they are correct for measuring cupramine's level. (some test kits are chelated copper and would read incorrectly)In the quarantine tank, Maintain the copper level @ .20 to .25 PPM for no less than 14 days even if the fish look cured. On the first day of treatment add approximately 1 Ml. of Cupramine per 10 gallons of water, 48 hours later test the copper level and adjust accordingly, (example; if your test shows that there is .10 PPM copper, add a half dose "5 Ml. per gallon" ) Test the copper level every few days and adjust accordingly. After 14 days, start performing small water changes and incorporate a good quality activated carbon into the filtration system that is maintaining the quarantine system.The carbon will reduce residule copper in the water.Keep them in the system for another 2 weeks of so and watch them closely. If necessary, repeat the entire process if the parasite starts to show up again. Add Salt water Vita chem to your fish food and to the water of the quarantine system to help boost the fishes immune system too.

As per your powder Blue, that is a tough one. As Tim Indicated, they are not real fond of copper treatments and often die from it. How I deal with Powder Blue tangs (which is not often - I avoid them because of how problematic they are) is a 30 gallon or larger bare bottom quarantine aquarium that is filtered & heated appropriately. Over several days, bring the S.G down to 1.010 and maintain it at his level for about 2-4 weeks. The "Ich" like parasites most likely will not survive the lower salt level. After a month or so, slowly bring the S.G back up to a more normal range (1.023 to 1.025-ish) After that, I don't have good advise, putting it back into the main aquarium could start the entire thing all over for you. If I were going to keep a Powder Blue, it would be the absolute last thing added to the tank to help minimize out brakes caused from the introduction of a new fish or invert. (rocks & corals can carry eggs or cysts too). A very small % of Powder Blue tangs do well, it is not common to have one survive long term or at least with out issues. The rare occasion that one does well with out significant effort on the part of the aquarist is some what of a fluke or just plane old luck.

Fresh water dips can be a good method of ridding the parasites from the fishes body but it will not kill the off spring living in the tank. I often fresh water dip our fish if I suspect that there is a problem but I also simultaneously treat with an appropriate medication for what ever the situation is. DO NOT USE RO/DI WATER to fresh water dip your fish. It is imperative that the fresh water be the same temp & PH as your aquarium water. RO/DI should be neutral (PH of 7.0) Either use dechlorinated tap water if your tap water is similar to your aquarium or mix up some buffer into your ro/di water untill you have acheived a similar parameter to your aquarium water.

As per the 125, a few things can be done. Just simply not having fish in the aquarium for 4-6 weeks will stop the active parasite population, they need hosts to keep the life cycle going. The UV sterilizers are not going to do much, they are too small and have many limitations to them. (another long subject) Put the 18 watt on the system that you put the powder blue in, it might be more useful there. Some water changes and substrate vacuuming will decrease the parasite population too. If your a fan of UV sterilizers, a 40 watt or larger with a water flow of 200 GPH or so would do much better. It's large enough that with a slower flow rate the exposure to the light will have a much more effective kill rate. If you want to do Better, get an Ozone Generator and use your protein skimmer as the reactor. This will serve many benificial functions. Ozone will kill & destroy just about everything it comes in contact with. It is very efficient at killing parasites (UV is very limited), it is very efficient at killing virus and bacterium (UV is not effective on either) and it will signifigantly improve your water quality. Ozone will greatly decrease the organic waste load in your aquarium decreasing the rate of organic build up (nitrates - phosphates, etc..) It won't get rid of existing values but will slow down production a great deal. You must use a controller with the ozone generator but Red Sea makes a great little all in one set up that is very simple to use. It is called the Aquazone 200 deluxe. If you have the extruded Euro Reef protein skimmer, you will need to replace it with a better one if your going to use ozone. The ozone will brake down the lower cost materials. If it's a cell cast acrylic type as most of the euro reef skimmers are, you have no worries.
I don't know if I covered everything here, if you need more imput, ask away and I'll do what I can or if it's easier, just call me at the shop (937) 435-1352. I'll be there 3-8 tonight (Friday) and noon to 5 Saturday.

Joel


Offline Joel

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2007, 13:47:29 »
Just saw your post about the Powder Blue :( Sorry to hear that  you lost it. Le tme know if I can help.

Joel

arbee

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2007, 15:12:46 »
Joel, thank you very much for the information. I ordered the cupramine and copper tests. The 50 gal is filled. I used fresh (aged) saltwater 1.025 and have a heater and temp probe along with some pvc pipe. I attached the HOT magnum for filter. Would it be alright to use something like Cycle to add beneficial bacteria?
I'm fine with daily waterchanges...just not sure about the filtration aspect of the hospital tank.
So, just the cupramine (copper) treatment will be enough and not use hypo?

arbee

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2007, 15:17:43 »
aquavista99 thank you for your help. Your PBT pic is great. They are really beautiful fish. I sure will miss mine. I enjoy all my fish, but there was something about him that always drew my attention to him. I watched him and enjoyed him for countless hours. I just feel so bad I let him down like this.

 I doubt I will ever try keeping them again, the way I feel right now.

slandis3

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2007, 17:39:27 »
Would it be alright to use something like Cycle to add beneficial bacteria?



I wouldnt waste your time with cycle. its useless imo.

Offline ohioreef

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2007, 17:57:09 »
WOW!! Good post, Joel. Check your PM.

Offline aquavista99

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2007, 20:15:09 »
aquavista99 thank you for your help. Your PBT pic is great. They are really beautiful fish. I sure will miss mine. I enjoy all my fish, but there was something about him that always drew my attention to him. I watched him and enjoyed him for countless hours. I just feel so bad I let him down like this.

 I doubt I will ever try keeping them again, the way I feel right now.

Sorry to hear about your loss. We lost our first PB to ich....actually, the Cupramine  treatments is what killed the fish and it was a very sad day. IMO, PB tangs should remain in the ocean. Most do not do well in captivity (emphasis added). Be careful treating fish with copper or Cupramine and test your water daily with copper test kits (if you decide to treat the rest of your fish with copper or related products). Some fish respond well to copper treatments, others (like PB tangs, sharks and rays) do not.  

As Joel stated above, Cupramine is less toxic to fish than pure copper treatments. Click on the link below to learn more about the product, if interested. Good luck.

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine_faq.html
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 20:42:47 by aquavista99 »

arbee

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2007, 21:22:28 »
Sorry to hear about your loss. We lost our first PB to ich....actually, the Cupramine  treatments is what killed the fish and it was a very sad day. IMO, PB tangs should remain in the ocean. Most do not do well in captivity (emphasis added). Be careful treating fish with copper or Cupramine and test your water daily with copper test kits (if you decide to treat the rest of your fish with copper or related products). Some fish respond well to copper treatments, others (like PB tangs, sharks and rays) do not.  

As Joel stated above, Cupramine is less toxic to fish than pure copper treatments. Click on the link below to learn more about the product, if interested. Good luck.

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine_faq.html
Thanks for the link--it was very helpful. The cupramine is scheduled to be here on Monday..I hope my Yellow Tang and a couple of the chromis hang in there.

Offline micki

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2007, 22:12:35 »
Have you moved them out of the main tank yet Rita?  You can also do a fresh water dip until they start treatment.

Offline aquavista99

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2007, 04:36:47 »
Thanks for the link--it was very helpful. The cupramine is scheduled to be here on Monday..I hope my Yellow Tang and a couple of the chromis hang in there.


No problem. I have a full bottle of cupramine and a copper test kit. You can  borrow it  (use as much as you want) if you don't want to wait until Monday until treating your fish. Just PM me if interested. As Joel stated above, be careful with any copper treatments and always test daily. Too much equals bad results.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 04:42:21 by aquavista99 »

Offline Joel

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2007, 08:50:07 »
I don't have any faith in the product "Cycle". In my opinion, there are several problems with it, first, Nitrafying bacteria (nitrosonomas & nitrobactor) are not the same specie in fresh water & salt water so in theory, it can not work on both like it claims. Second, nitrifying bacteria needs both food and oxygen to survive, it has a very limited amount of either being sealed up in a pouch or bottle. Lastly, for years, customers who have been using cycle at the suggestion of other shops almost all ways have a water quality issue.

You are going to need a completely established biological filter on your quarantine set up. The hot magnum is not a good filter for biological filtration. It's primary function is to trap dirt and to perform chemical filtration, typically in the form of a filter sleeve & activated carbon. In your situation, you do not want chemical filtration to take place while treating with cupramine, the activated carbon will remove the carbon from your water. Having a dirt trap on the system is not a bad thing but keep in mind that the debris in the filter is still going to have a negative affect on your water. It is a very common misconception that "the dirt is in my filter there fore my aquarium is clean & the water quality will be fine" This is a incorrect assumption. There is little differance (if any) between organic material laying on the bottom of your tank and rotting causing water quality issues versus being trapped in your filter and rotting causing water quality problems.  If the hot magnum has a bio wheel that may be of a little benifit but the surface area is so small that even an established one would struggle to keep things right.

In one manner or another, you are going to need a very efficient biological filter such as a wet/dry with bio balls and it will need to be completely established. The easiest way to achieve this is to buy a small wet dry (new or used) and have a quality local shop or hobbyists trade you the bio balls out of their filtration system for the ones in yours. In theory, at that point your system is fully established and you will have no water quality issues. If you are local to me, I have everything you need that I can either sell you or loan to you to get you thru this. The wet / dry should have at least 2 cubic gallons of media (bio balls) to be properly sized for you quarantine system. The more cu gal of media, the better. You will want a theoretical turn over of total system water of no less than 4 times per hour (6 would be better) ( a wet/dry should have no less than 1 cu. gal. of media for each 20 gallons of salt water)

If you have not all ready, get your fish out of your tank and into the quarantine system. If the quanantine system is 100% new synthetic sea water, put your fish in a bucket of water from your aquarium (just a few inches of water) and over 30 minutes or so, slowly introduce water from your quarantine system to the bucket. Going from aged water to 100 % new water to quickly will be very shocking to the fish. This mixing of the water method with make it much more gentle on the fish. (Note: any time any fish or especially an invert is moved from one body of water to another, this method should be done) Even if you don't have a biological filter running on your quarantine system, it is the lesser of evils getting the fish into it. If left in the display aquarium, the parasite most likely will kill your fish before Monday. Putting them into the quarantine system will remove the fish from where the active (and what sounds to be like a very large population) parasites are. Just getting them away from it will help significantly. A 15 minute fresh water dip before adding them to the quarantine system will remove most if not all the parasites from the fishes body's and will decrease the parasite introduction into the quarantine system. If you choose to fresh water dip them (which I suggest), get them out of the aquarium & into a bucket of water from the aquarium. Next put them into fresh water with the same temperatur and ph as the aquarium for about 15 minutes. After that, put them back into the bucket of water removed from the aquarium and slowly start introducing the water from the quarantine system to acclimate them to it. (whew!!! that's a lot of steps) it is completly normal for the fish to lay on their side and curl up their bodies while in the fresh water, don't panic and think you just killed them.  If the fish is repairable and you have the fresh water correct , it will not kill your fish. If all is done correctly and a fish dies from a fresh water dip, it most likely wasn't going to make it anyway.

In the absence of a good, established biological filter on the quarantine system, monitoring your water quality and performing water changes on it to counter any ammonia is  going to be very important. You will need to monitor your water quality anyway but especially in the absence of a proper filtration system. Performing water changes to maintain proper waste management in my opinion is not a good method because it can generate a very unstable environment for the fish and you will constantly need to adjust your medications. This should be a last resort method.

If I can help with any of this, let me know.

Thanks...Joel

arbee

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2007, 19:31:40 »
Gosh, Joel-You are amazing! Step by step instuctions and lots of info.
I just finished for the day after working for 6 hours in the tanks. I feel like a pickle soaked in sw brine :)
I transferred most of the fish into the HT. I followed your instructions, and did the fw dip. That did take lots of time, with only being able to catch one or two at a time (about 30 to 45 minutes of chasing each time), then dipping for the 15 minutes, then acclimating to the ht water. I did lose two of the blue green chromis during the dip :(
 I literally tore the tank apart, and still need to get one more chromis, the yellow watchman goby and the lawnmower blenny (tomorrow). All the others (a clown, yellow tang and 6 chromis) are now eating in the new tank.
I have a 110 Aquaclear on the tank right now--no foam or carbon insert. Nothing for biological filtration. I live in the NE part of the state, so I'm unfortunatly almost 4 hours away-or I would take you up on your generous offer. I'll check around and see if I can find some live bioballs.
Would it be possible to use LR rubble in the AC for the short term? I would then just throw it away if it would be unusable in the future. This is from another tank.
I really REALLY appreciate all the help and information. At least now they may have a fighting chance.
Now the real work starts.....testing and keeping them alive during treatment for the next 6 weeks.


Offline micki

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2007, 19:35:11 »
Rita, sounds like you are on your way to getting your fish healthy.  Something I've done for catching the smaller fish is get some rather large tubing and start a siphon.  You can then put the tubing near the fish and just siphon the fish into a bucket.  Not a lot of stress on the fish and a lot less time.  :)  Good luck!

arbee

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2007, 22:35:50 »
Thats a great tip Micki. I'll try that.
I did get the lawnmower blenny out tonight. Now, only the ywg and the last devil chromis. Cheeky devil hides when I walk by the tank. Yesterday he would darn near kiss me when I walked up to the tank at feeding time. Oh, how fast they turn on you  ::)~LOL

Offline Joel

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2007, 07:53:00 »
Although the aquaclear is under sized and not an ideal filter, it's better than nothing for sure, as would the be the magnum. Both these filters, although different in appearance, basically perform the same function. Use the pre filter sponge and rinse it regularly to keep debris out of it. Putting live rock rubble in the filter would be a good idea, it will contain benificial bacteria that may help with water quality managment. I don't think that it will be able to maintain your water properly though because it's just too small amount of surface area.

I know I mentioned it previously but let me say again that using a good quality supplement in your fishes food will be a great help. It will significantly boost your fishes immune system and help them not only resist the parasite but also heal better too. Byod's Saltwater Vita chem is a wonderful vitamin supplement that I use just about every day. In a quarantine system, it can also be added to the water. Salt water fish (un like fresh water fish) drink the water, if the supplement is present in the water they are ingesting it. Just don't over do it, it can affect water quality. I don't suggest adding it to the display tank water though, it would be mostly a waste of money because your protein skimmer would strip it out pretty quick. Another supplement that is awesome is Selcon, it too will boost the immune system of your fish. Another tip is either going to the health food store and buying liquid garlic concentrate or just going to the grocery store and getting garlic cloves and putting the cloves in a garlic press. Either way, adding garlic "juice" to your fish food can help with parasites too. There are garlic supplement also available from Kent and Sea Chem to mention a couple. I mostly use Ocean Nutrition's Frozen Formula Two for fish food, I'll put it in a little glad ware, dose it with a supplement (only one at a time) and put it in the fridge over night to let it thaw and allow the supplement to soak in. The next day, my foods ready to go, when I'm done feeding for the day, I repeat the process and get the food thawing / soaking for the next day. I am not a fan of most dry or freeze dried foods, although they have their place, they typically don't have the vitamin and nutrient retention that the frozen foods do.

Another tip that may be useful for the future; Large sponge filters that are typically used for breeding fish or raising fry is a great type filter to use in a quarantine system. What you can do is just keep the sponge filter continuously in your sump of your main tank. When a situation arises that you need to isolate a fish, fill your quarantine system with water from your aquarium and then transfer the sponge from your sump to the quarantine system. At that point, hook up a appropriately sized air pump to the sponge filter and your ready to go. When done, rinse out the filter real well and put it back in your aquarium sump or get a new one and put it in your sump to get fully established with benificial bacteria.


arbee

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2007, 08:52:03 »
Joel, will fill the AQ with rubble today. Again thank you for all the time and knowlege you are sharing.
I use Boyd's Vita-Chem, Selcon and Garlic Extreme with every feeding. They get a varied feeding, sometimes with mixtures of Spectrum Marine Optimum flakes, Formula One marine pellets, spirulina kelp flakes, brine shrimp flakes..all soaked in the above. And they all eat mysis shrimp thawed in the supplements evry other day or Rods frozen once or twice a week. I was feeding enriched Nori (red/green/purple) everyday when I had both the tangs, but will most likely use every few days now with just the YT and the blenny. They both eat other flake/frozen foods well.
They are all good eaters and I vary their diet. I think that has a lot to do with why the ones left have made it through so far. I knew when the PBT didn't eat the morning he died that he wouldn't make it.
They ate well this morning and I siphoned any left overs and waste from the bottom.

Now I have to go on the hunt for one more chromis (I swear he whispered "Neener Neener" as I walked by the tank this morning) and the YWG.
They're on to me now  ;)
 

Offline micki

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2007, 09:26:46 »
Rita if you use a large tube you should be able to siphon both out fairly easy. :)

bigfalcon36

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2007, 12:25:00 »
This thread has been given sticky status for the info in it.  Great info guys...
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 12:34:05 by bigfalcon36 »

Offline micki

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2007, 12:26:32 »
Good call Travis!  :)

arbee

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2007, 17:57:53 »
Rita if you use a large tube you should be able to siphon both out fairly easy. :)
Thanks Micki,
I did get them all out and everyone is in the HT. I do need to get large tubing so I don't have to do this again.

arbee

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Re: Battle with Marine Ich
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2007, 18:00:20 »
No problem. I have a full bottle of cupramine and a copper test kit. You can  borrow it  (use as much as you want) if you don't want to wait until Monday until treating your fish. Just PM me if interested. As Joel stated above, be careful with any copper treatments and always test daily. Too much equals bad results.
/Aquavista-- that was so kind of you to offer. Boy, I sure wish I was closer to you all.

 

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