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Author Topic: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?  (Read 3105 times)

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Offline kattz

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Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« on: March 29, 2011, 22:57:40 »
Just got back from Japan late Sunday nite to a tank of great fish but dead acros.  Well, the red planet ORA continues to rock on, but everything else wasted. 

Went back and checked my Apex graphs for the past week; temp 79.2-79.8.  pH 7.8-7.99.  Wife tested alk every other day - rock solid at 8.3 Dkh every day.  Don't think lighting is an issue.  Need the PAR meter again to verify.  Did full test panel last night, calk at 450, mag at 1360, alk at 8.3, nitrates at 1, zero phos/amm/nitrites.  All acros turn soft, brown, and mushy at the tips for several days, and then just RTN from the tips back.  there are no stray volts in the tank, either.

I posted over at RC, and three repeating things keep coming back as potential issues:

Copper - will test for it tomorrow.  Don't think this is an issue.

Washing the filter socks in the washing machine with a small amount of bleach and then running an additional rinse cycle.  Is this good or bad?  They say bad.  Please tell me how you clean your socks (the ones in the sump, not the odiferous ones on your feet).

Bad salt - what?  I've been using Tropic Marin Reef Pro for many months, and actually, about as long as I've been having problems.  Checked on RC, and sure enough, there's other users with the same identical symptoms as me.  Could be coincidence.  Not sure.

But... I just opened up a new bucket of TMRP salt and did a 25-30 gal water change about 3 weeks ago.  Had a massive amount of LPS polyp bailout (goldenrod torch, green torch, 2 lobophyllia, and dendrphyllia) over two weeks following this change.  Too much to be a coincidence?  I think maybe not.  Don't want to take a shot in the dark - thoughts?

Kev
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline lazylivin

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2011, 00:42:17 »
Kev don't have a clue why you have lost the corals but sorry this has happened. It is a sicking feeling.

Offline Steve

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2011, 11:20:31 »
I feel you're pain x 2. Let me know when you are squared away and I will try to help you restock. I have twice had to trust in a few fellow reefers to regain lost stock. I agree with Brian it will make you sick to you're stomach.

Offline Wall_Tank

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2011, 19:30:36 »

Washing the filter socks in the washing machine with a small amount of bleach and then running an additional rinse cycle.  Is this good or bad?  They say bad.  Please tell me how you clean your socks (the ones in the sump, not the odiferous ones on your feet).

Bad salt - what?  I've been using Tropic Marin Reef Pro for many months, and actually, about as long as I've been having problems.  Checked on RC, and sure enough, there's other users with the same identical symptoms as me.  Could be coincidence.  Not sure.

Let me address these two.

1st washing the filter socks.   Funny enough this was a topic that John Copolino addressed at his presentation at CORA.    Run the washer in a plain water cycle.  Then put the filter socks in with Bleach, then run an extra rinse.    If this is good enough for "Copps".......I would say this is not a problem.    For the record, I do the same.

I ran into a problem last summer with all I could trace back to is bad RSCP salt.   The decline was quite slow, but the recovery after changing brands of salt was quite rapid.   I gave the suspect salt to Rich at Coral Ranch, he used it without problem, but then my system is much smaller than his.   If your suspecting the salt, change....... change right now.

Offline cyberwollf

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2011, 20:19:39 »
How long were you in japan? Did your wife do any waterchanges while you were gone?  Did you do a big waterchange before you left? 

Just trying to nail down if it was something that changed right before you left (or while you were gone) to get things out of wack OR was it a surplus of something that built up while you were gone?

 What all do you supplement? Weren't you running zeofit and other "biological" stuff thats newer to the hobby?
75G Mixed Reef w/ 30G sump/refuge

Electrical Engineers do it on impulse, with faster rise times, with more power, and less resistance at higher frequencies, without shorts, until it Hertz


Offline kattz

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2011, 20:21:23 »
Paul, this is how I wash my socks, so ok, no issue there.

Bought a copper test kit and checked it.  No copper.  All that's left is the salt.  I called Lou at Tropic Marin USA today and he's trying to help me sort out the salt issue.  I've no idea which way to head with the salt if I want to change.  I've heard that Brightwell is best, or RSCP, or Seachem, or Reef Crystals. Ideas?  Every other parameter is in line; even the nitrates are now down to around 1-2.5ppm.

AAAAARRRRRGH!!!
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline kattz

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2011, 20:43:22 »
How long were you in japan? Did your wife do any waterchanges while you were gone?  Did you do a big waterchange before you left? 
1 week in Japan.  No water changes while I was gone.  Last water change 3 wks ago w/ fresh rinsed carbon and fresh rinsed GFO.  Wife ran tests for alk and calk every other day while I was gone; 450 and 8.3 every day.  Reefdoser running and dosing automatically.  Alk/calc/mag solid and steady.  Tests of the water Monday nite indicated no issues whatsoever; tested phos/nitrite/amm/nitrate/sal/sp gr/calcium/alk/mag.  Phos/amm/nitrite at zero, nitrate at 1ppm, ph at 7.98, sal at 34-35ppt, sp gr at 1.026, calcium at 450, alk at 8.3, mag at 1360.

Just trying to nail down if it was something that changed right before you left (or while you were gone) to get things out of wack OR was it a surplus of something that built up while you were gone?  No changes to anything before I left for precisely this reason.

What all do you supplement? Weren't you running zeofit and other "biological" stuff thats newer to the hobby? 
Vertex pellets stopped 3 days after started 6 mos ago.  No Zeovit.  Tried Brightwell Bacter7 and Reef Fuel for about 3 days but left a funky skim on the water and I didn't like it.  This was about 6 weeks ago.  Been vodka dosing to bring nitrates down and religiously following instructions and schedule.  Total dose is now 0.8ml day with no plans to increase it; started at 0.1 ml/day, then after 3 days went to 0.3 ml, and then after 1 week of this, increased to 0.8 ml.  Nitrates are now down and skimmer running normally.  This has been going on for 5 weeks.  Had brown tip and dying acros and montis since about Oct (which correlates with my first bucket of TMRP salt, BTW), chalked it up to beginner stupidity and poor lighting.  Lighting no longer an issue, all params stable in tank (graphs on Apex back this up for pH and temp), there's just nothing left.  The tank has responded very well to the vodka dosing, and some corals that hadn't ever put their polyps out were finally doing well.  The only other thing to check once the salt is changed is to get a PAR meter and set the lighting for about 100 PAR at the sandbed.  We do have to change the sand; stuff I have is too coarse.
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline kattz

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2011, 17:38:18 »
Changed all sand, pulled out all Pukani or suspected Pukani rock, drained all but about 2 gallons of water from the system, replaced with RSCP salt and 120 gallons of RO/DI Water.  Also removed most rock in the less is more school of thought.  Tank looks more like Lazy's now.

We lost one peppermint shrimp in the process.  Everything else not only made it, but seems to be happier.
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline lazylivin

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2011, 21:11:58 »
That is good news Kev. Looking forward to checking it out.

Offline Myreef55

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2011, 22:38:19 »
I hope all works out for you. Defiantly a sickly feeling when anything like this happens.. :(

Offline cyberwollf

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2011, 08:03:12 »
Watch everything closely.  With changing all that stuff, you never know which way it will go.
75G Mixed Reef w/ 30G sump/refuge

Electrical Engineers do it on impulse, with faster rise times, with more power, and less resistance at higher frequencies, without shorts, until it Hertz


Offline UDJustin

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2011, 08:38:12 »
Watch everything closely.  With changing all that stuff, you never know which way it will go.

I agree with Wes I think you really need to watch it with all the changes made so rapidly. Just because right after you did it you "think" the corals look better doesn't mean they are. I would just let the tank settle for a little while before changing anything more.
If you didn't know I'm kind of a big deal...

Offline kattz

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2011, 09:38:49 »
No more changes are planned.  Other than mg/ca/alk dosing to maintain, no planned products to be used.
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline kattz

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2011, 09:52:05 »
What I found amazing was that after the change, with no livestock other than in the tank and only 2 gal of original water left in sump, with all new water and sand and no rock in the tank, the skimmer was still pulling out skimmate.
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline motley

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2011, 09:58:48 »
i too just had the same problem with tropic mariene coral salt when i went on vay kay.  i left with a ph lvl of 8.3 and came back to a ph of 6 and lost over 5-6k in corals in one week.  you are lucky to still have that red planet.  mine was so bad it even took out my xenia.. lol  im now working at re building.  and am going to send a complaint to tm salt.

michael

Offline cyberwollf

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2011, 17:42:05 »
i too just had the same problem with tropic mariene coral salt when i went on vay kay.  i left with a ph lvl of 8.3 and came back to a ph of 6 and lost over 5-6k in corals in one week.  you are lucky to still have that red planet.  mine was so bad it even took out my xenia.. lol  im now working at re building.  and am going to send a complaint to tm salt.

michael

How is a pH drop over time, salt related? Did you check your mag, cal, alk levels before, durring, and after vacation?
75G Mixed Reef w/ 30G sump/refuge

Electrical Engineers do it on impulse, with faster rise times, with more power, and less resistance at higher frequencies, without shorts, until it Hertz


Offline kattz

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2011, 20:00:36 »
Hey, Wes, something that I noticed with the RSCP salt is that yes, it comes in at 12+ DkH, calcium at 470, mg at 1390, but amazingly enough with that high of alk, the pH only came in at 8.01.

Kev
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline cyberwollf

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2011, 20:11:48 »
Hey, Wes, something that I noticed with the RSCP salt is that yes, it comes in at 12+ DkH, calcium at 470, mg at 1390, but amazingly enough with that high of alk, the pH only came in at 8.01.

Kev

I was just pointing out that Motley said that he had good pH before he left and low when he got back.  If the salt was low, I assume he supplmented correctly when doing waterchange.  So salt could be deficient, but it would not have caused a pH drop over time while he was gone, it was some other variable.
75G Mixed Reef w/ 30G sump/refuge

Electrical Engineers do it on impulse, with faster rise times, with more power, and less resistance at higher frequencies, without shorts, until it Hertz


Offline kattz

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2011, 20:13:23 »
I was reading your comment to Motley when I brought this up.  pH with the TMRP salt was always at 7.9-8.1 depending.
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline motley

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2011, 21:28:14 »
How is a pH drop over time, salt related? Did you check your mag, cal, alk levels before, durring, and after vacation?

everything was spot on except for the alk witch was just alittle low but not enough to take my reef.

Offline kattz

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2011, 18:47:25 »
Well, we are like 3 weeks into this.  We lost 2 peppermint shrimp due to injury, but everything else is doing great.  Added ORA derasa clam, lemon-lime mille, rose mille, Coral Ranch Firecracker (?) monti, crayola acro, and black sun polyps.  All except the rose mille and black suns were added as a test two weeks ago.  No problems.  None.  Zip.  Nada.  Fox coral that was in decline has come back with a vengance.  Beautiful puffy light neon green...  Thanks to Rich for his assistance and to Lazylivin +5 for all of his help and putting up with me while I was in full-on panic mode.  Lazy, the rhizo has come out and expanded it's tentacles like 2-3" on a regular basis.  I'll have to post some pics.  You need to get one.

ph - 8.19-8.26 daily swing
alk - 11-11.2 - dosing about 50ml a day with reefdoser
calcium - dosing 10 ml a day to maintain 460
mg - 1380 and holding - no dosing
nitrates ~2.5ppm regularly
p03 - 0
amm - 0
nitrites - like, below zero. ;P

It was the rock, or maybe the sand, or maybe even the salt.  All I know is, this tank has NEVER been this steady.  Knock on wood.
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline lazylivin

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2011, 21:18:46 »
That is great news Kev. Your wife said she would trade me the Rhizo for that nice shelf rock. I thought we had a deal ?. Does she know what it cost. :-$

Offline kattz

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Re: Absolutely PO'd... Copper? Bad Salt?
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2011, 08:55:20 »
I'll PM you on this...
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

 

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