2024 Ohio Reef Frag Swap

2024 flyer

Author Topic: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....  (Read 3931 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« on: July 23, 2011, 20:03:11 »
I'm a little lost for words here... Just got our 150g FOWLR all cleaned out and getting ready to make it into a SPS only reef.  So then I got to checking all the various levels to make sure it was all stable before I added corals. Everything was within range of where it should have been except Aklalinity.  The test results are as follows:
(All salifert tests, except the Specific gravitiy)
Calcium: 420 (good)
Phosphates: 0.03 (good)
pH: 8.2 (good)
Specific Gravity: 1.024 (good)
KH/Alk: 22.7 (Roughly twice what it should be)

The tank currently has no corals, but it has had several fish in it for a little under a year.  Recently sold off all the fish that would eat any invertibrates, so we got a dozen each of nessarious snails, red legged hermits, and margarita snails. We also got a fighting conch, tiger cowery snail and a sand sifter star to boot. All are doing really well and don't seem to be stressed from the massive KH, but I'm pretty sure we'll need to have it lowered to switch the corals. I read in an article that giving the tank better airation should help lower it, but it hasn't really helped. The tank is running an algea scrubber, protein skimmer (ASM) and a UV sterilizer which is blowing a stream out of the water to help make waves in the sump (I think the tank is pretty well airated).  If anyone has any ideas for how to lower the the dKH or input as to why this might have happened, I'd love to hear em... 

Offline lazylivin

  • Administrator
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,471
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2011, 20:07:02 »
If your DKH was at 22.7 the PH would be much higher and you would have a white cloud of precipitation in the water. Have someone double check with a different tester.

Offline muttley000

  • Juvenile
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2011, 20:09:04 »
If your DKH was at 22.7 the PH would be much higher and you would have a white cloud of precipitation in the water. Have someone double check with a different tester.

Agree, need to check the checker here, seems like there would have been a precipitation event if it were really that high.

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2011, 20:25:56 »
I went to Aquatic Specialists and got another KH/Alk test today. It read the same as the first test I tried (both salifert). I read the directions carefully a few times and tested it on our reef tank and it was at 11.2 like it should be... I put the pink nipple on the 1ml syringe and had to fill it twice to get a measurement.  One empty syringe equals 15.7dKH  and the second syringe changed the color at .54ml's which equals 7dKH... that's how I came up with the 22.7 number.

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2011, 20:28:22 »
I guess I should add that I'm by no means opposed to the check the checker option.  :)

Offline lazylivin

  • Administrator
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,471
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2011, 20:45:19 »
Since you verified it is probably correct. Do u have any idea what could have caused it to get so high? The only thing I could think of that would raise Alk but not ph is baking soda?

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2011, 21:38:32 »
It was a FOWLR so we didn't do too much with it besides water changes.  The only thing that would have had any known addition to the Alk was when we used the two part B-ionic solution of Alk and Calc. We used that sparingly during the last year to keep the parameters in a close range to reef specs so when we were ready to make the switch it wouldn't be such a drawn out ordeal (the best laid plans...).  Any ideas on how to lower the levels? I figured that with the Alk as high as it is we're going to have to use chemicals (unlike).....

Offline kattz

  • Posts: 1,665
  • Old surfer dude
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2011, 22:00:34 »
Well, two observations... good thing you didn't put any corals in there yet, AND...
Did you get both Salifert's at the same place?  Could be both are junque (Creole for junk).  Test again using someone else's kit.

I can't imagine having this reading and not having a precipitation event.  You can lower the levels using a 50% water change.
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2011, 22:22:08 »
Yep. Amen about not jumping in corals first!  lol.  The original test kit came from Phishy Business but it was about 8 months old, I got the other test today at Aquatic Specialists just because the number was so out of the ordinary.  I'm not sure if I have enough salt currently to do a 50% change, we did a 35% change when we sold most of the live rock on Tuesday.  I'll measure out how much salt is left in the bucket and do whatever percent that would be and keep ya posted.  Anyone else have any organic ideas I can pair with a water change?

Offline Wall_Tank

  • Administrator
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,747
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2011, 22:40:36 »
Yep. Amen about not jumping in corals first!  lol.  The original test kit came from Phishy Business but it was about 8 months old, I got the other test today at Aquatic Specialists just because the number was so out of the ordinary.  I'm not sure if I have enough salt currently to do a 50% change, we did a 35% change when we sold most of the live rock on Tuesday.  I'll measure out how much salt is left in the bucket and do whatever percent that would be and keep ya posted.  Anyone else have any organic ideas I can pair with a water change?

Salifert test kits come with a reference solution.   Did you do a reference test?   That will tell you if your procedure and reagents are good.

All being said, I don't believe the number either.  If the fish are doing fine, I would not do anything sudden until you understand what is causing the number.   Are you sure you're ph reading is correct.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 22:50:35 by Wall_Tank »

Offline Boonjob

  • Posts: 4,323
  • Reefkeeping: Go Broke or Go Home
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2011, 22:46:47 »
Salifert test kits come with a reference solution.   Did you do a reference test?   That will tell you if your procedure and reagents are good.

All being said, I don't believe the number either.  If the fish are doing fine, I would not do anything sudden until you understand what is causing the number.   Are you sure you're ph reading is correct.

Salifert Alk test kits come with a reference solution.   Did you run the test using the reference......that will tell you if you're proceedure and reagents are good.

now I have seen it all.. an echo on a internet forum :P
God is great, Beer is good, and People are crazy...

Life is a beach, I'm just playing in the sand.


http://www.ustream.tv/channel/boonjob-s-reef-tank

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2011, 23:26:56 »
Lol! Hello. Heellllllooo!   *echo works. * Yep. Forgot to mention that I also did the test sample of saltwater, and it came out straight.   At this point I'm debating doing what I did when my phosphates were causing all that hair algae in our 75g reef and do a 100% change. (It worked wonders and has kept for 8 months, so don't knock the idea.)

Offline lazylivin

  • Administrator
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,471
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2011, 23:47:00 »
If your Alk is that high stop dosing if you haven't already and it will come down on it's own in a few weeks. Looks like you are a bit far but welcome to bring a water sample over and I can test for you.

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2011, 00:24:15 »
Lazy, honestly I'd bring over a wiater sample just to have a decent reason to chew the fat and see your tank...

Offline Todd W.

  • Adult
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2011, 15:04:25 »
My tanked spiked on Alk and killed my cucumber, brittle star and coral banded shrimp.  Never found out the cause, all other parameters were OK.  I did a MASSIVE water change to fix it...

Very perplexing....

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2011, 22:18:00 »
Unfortunately I found the problem. The water coming from our tap has a 22.5 Dkh. To make matters worse we use a Kold Sertil RO/DI which as I understand it, leaves trace elements (such as alk and calc) but cleans out everything else. So the 50% water change didn't do anything to bring the alcalinity down at all (but tank looks great and everyone is still happy)(in 20/20 hindsight, I should have checked that first).  Going to take a look online to see if there is anything I can put in the water softener system or other whatnot. I'll keep you all posted if I find anything, but if anyone has or had similar issues, I appricaite the heads up.

Offline lazylivin

  • Administrator
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,471
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2011, 07:15:59 »
That is good you found the issue. Here is some info on this issue. http://freedrinkingwater.com/water-education2/74-alkalinity-water.htm looks like using anion resin may help.

Offline Wall_Tank

  • Administrator
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,747
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2011, 13:08:24 »
Not sure I would want an RODI system to be designed to leave any dissolved solids in the water.     Sure none of them get to zero TDS, but this sounds like an excuse for a poor designed unit.

Offline coral ranch

  • Adult
  • ****
  • Posts: 678
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2011, 17:39:01 »
We tried the Kold Steril when we first set up and replaced it with an RODI after 6 months. It just lets to much bad stuff through. silcates, and phosphates seem to be a big problem. About 6 years ago there was alot of talk about this unit but it really never lived up to it's hype. I think it was originally used in hospitals for drinking water. The fact that it could make so much water in such a short time made it a very interesting alternative to RO units and if I remember correctly it does not produce waste water.

Offline Todd W.

  • Adult
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2011, 18:11:55 »
Unfortunately I found the problem. The water coming from our tap has a 22.5 Dkh.

Quick question.... Did you use a saltwater test to test your tap water?  I think that freshwater and saltwater tests react a bit different. 

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2011, 13:35:44 »
Quick question.... Did you use a saltwater test to test your tap water?  I think that freshwater and saltwater tests react a bit different. 

I did use a salifert drip test for the water, and checked around and couldn't find a separate test for fresh water...dunno.

We tried the Kold Steril when we first set up and replaced it with an RODI after 6 months. It just lets to much bad stuff through. silcates, and phosphates seem to be a big problem. About 6 years ago there was alot of talk about this unit but it really never lived up to it's hype. I think it was originally used in hospitals for drinking water. The fact that it could make so much water in such a short time made it a very interesting alternative to RO units and if I remember correctly it does not produce waste water.

Yep, all those things are the reason why we bought kold steril. We originally had an RO/DI and were getting sick of the amount of waste water and time spent (We used the waste water to water the garden in the summer, but it's still a ton of waste.)  I should note that this is the first problem that we've had with the unit. I confess that I didn't know about the silcates being an issue, I'll have to get a test for that. Phosphates were always at 0 and honestly, not having to dose so much for alk and calc was a plus as well.  One of the big things that's been stumping me about the whole ordeal is that we test all the time in the reef tank and tested semi regularly in the 150 and never had any problems with alk being so high.  Upon looking around for answers I came across the possibility that the aquifer that we pump water from might be down because of the recent heat and drought... In which case anything I do to correct the problem will only cause problems down the line when the aquifer is replenished... I think that for the time being, it'll be best to lower the alk per bucket, until I have a better long range idea of what is the real problem.  I know both calcium and mild acids have the properties to lower Dkh, but I'm burning through calcium at an incredible rate as it is and the amount of Alk lowering is not an equal proportion.  I have major hebe-jebes about adding an type of (industrial) acid to the tank though...   anion resin is looking like the best bet so far.


Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2011, 21:03:44 »
.....yep. I think I need to be committed to the hall of fame for "should've checked that first". I'm not sure how, why, or when this happened... but it appears that the water softener became unplugged.  In a day or two I'll check the water out of the tap and see what the kH is reading. Then we'll have to do another water change (fun!).  :P

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2011, 13:24:16 »
Has anyone ever done work with a pool or any other large water system that might have used hydrochloric or sulfuric acid to bring down alkalinity? I've looked all over online  to find a measurement chart for how much to use to bring down the alk but to no avail. Further testing showed that that water coming in straight from the well was at 22.4 and nothing I have in the house filtration wise will bring it down. After reading about it, I wanted to give a heads up to anyone that might have a similar situation (lives on well water and just can't seem to give up a kold-steril system). It seems that a couple of folks just added two DI filters at the end of the line and it works very well. However, as mentioned earlier in this thread, it is advisable to pick up a good phosphates and silicates test kit (our water was clean of those).

Offline DarinSchmidt

  • darinschmidt@gmail.com
  • Posts: 1,616
  • The wisest man knows he knows nothing at all.
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2011, 13:55:15 »
Get a 5gal bucket, put some acid (5ml) in it, wait an hour, test it. keep doing so till you have brought it down to where you want it and then wait till the next day, measure it again, and if everything is good, multiply that by how many gallons your tank is and then put a little less in the tank throughout the week or two till it gets down to where you want it. Then you also know how much to add for water changes.

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2011, 14:20:31 »
That made my head hurt for not thinking of that..... Thanks Darin!

Offline DarinSchmidt

  • darinschmidt@gmail.com
  • Posts: 1,616
  • The wisest man knows he knows nothing at all.
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2011, 14:21:51 »
ha ha, no problem, i think a lot of people (including me) are tired from the weather, and i started back to school this week...

Offline The WuSue

  • Lifetime Premium Member
  • Adult
  • *****
  • Posts: 794
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2011, 15:49:56 »
Cool! What classes are ya taking?

Offline DarinSchmidt

  • darinschmidt@gmail.com
  • Posts: 1,616
  • The wisest man knows he knows nothing at all.
Re: Alkalinity at 22.7 dKH.....
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2011, 23:13:29 »
Art 214 and mth 130

 

Powered by EzPortal