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Author Topic: Cash for Codgers!!!!!  (Read 5215 times)

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Blown76mav

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Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« on: August 22, 2009, 19:42:16 »
Just in.......

 
Democrats, realizing the success of the President's "Cash For Clunkers" rebate program, have revamped a major portion of their National Health Care Plan.
President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, and Sen. Reed  are expected to make this major announcement at a joint news conference later this week. I have obtained an advanced copy of the proposal which is named....
"CASH FOR CODGERS" and it works like this.... Couples wishing to access health care funds in order to pay for the delivery of a child will be required to turn in one old person.  The amount the government grants them will be fixed according to a sliding scale. Older and more prescription dependent codgers will garner the highest amounts.
Special "Bonuses" will be paid for those submitting codgers in targeted groups, such as smokers, alcohol drinkers, persons 10 pounds over their government prescribed weight, and any member of the Republican Party.
Smaller bonuses will be given for codgers who consume beef, soda, fried foods, potato chips, lattes, whole milk, dairy products, bacon, Brussel sprouts, or Girl Scout Cookies.
All codgers will be rendered totally useless via toxic injection. This will insure that they are not secretly resold or their body parts harvested to keep other codgers in repair.

 ;D

Reefd Up

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2009, 19:51:47 »
LOL.  I'm joining socialized healthcare (military's healthcare)...and I'm a bit scared...especially since Wright Patt's hospital is a "training hospital"...known as the "hobby shop." 

Offline UD Flyer

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2009, 20:36:51 »
That’s great!   The government didn’t run the Cash for Clunkers program efficiently, but people actually want them to run a healthcare system!

Offline verper

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2009, 20:51:25 »
 :laugh:  My dad better watch out!

On a similar note, did anyone read that the Cash for Clunkers actually helped the foreign manufactures more than the domestic by a 58/42 margin?  So $1.74 billion of the 3 billion just went to them.  So now we are propping up the foreign car companies with our tax dollars too.  Makes a lot of sense.  ::)

Offline stickboy_107

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2009, 21:04:27 »
Yeah, I think I heard something about this while I was at the Freedom Concert yesterday while standing there with Sean Hannity.

Offline chromiumlux

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2009, 21:55:04 »
Does this mean I can trade in my Old lady and her Honda for a few sleeker models?
Chromiumlux

Offline UD Flyer

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2009, 22:08:58 »
Does this mean I can trade in my Old lady and her Honda for a few sleeker models?

 :laugh:

Offline JSLeedy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2009, 06:19:38 »
How was the freedom concert?  I wish I could have gone.  Sounds like a good time.  Was Neal Boortz and Mark Levin there?  Those two guys are the best host on the air.  Was it really crowded?
Dayton,Ohio

Offline rayviv

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2009, 10:24:50 »
I'm in that 'Codger Category' and can see it coming. Is it true that the more wore out the Codger the less cash they offer? And I think this is modeled after the Solient Green project!

You guys look Good standing with the 'Great American'!

Better keep the old lady; prices on hondas are on the rise while cost of old ladies is stable.

I dont believe that so many people are so narrow minded w/tunnel vision. I grew up 'street wise' and can spot a story teller. I just want some honesty and integrity that will stand for WE THE PEOPLE.
 
AND my salute to all you that serve in the military!!!!                   Ray
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Offline stickboy_107

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2009, 10:53:32 »
The Concert was great. Neal Boortz and Mark Levin weren't there. There was Rich Little the comedian, The actor Jon Voight, Sean Hannity, Col. Oliver North, Michael W. Smith, Billy Ray Cyrus, The Charlie Daniels Band, and Lee Greenwood. It was pretty crowded, but a really fun concert. We even got to talk to Rob Scott the founder of the Dayton Tea Party. We had a great time.

Thanks Ray! We had a great time.

Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 18:46:07 »
:laugh:  My dad better watch out!

On a similar note, did anyone read that the Cash for Clunkers actually helped the foreign manufactures more than the domestic by a 58/42 margin?  So $1.74 billion of the 3 billion just went to them.  So now we are propping up the foreign car companies with our tax dollars too.  Makes a lot of sense.  ::)

So I just noticed this post.

I see it a bit different. Cash that goes back to the country of the manufacturer doesn't help us, unless you consider how its spent.

I think the real question to ask is, where does this money go? Where are the cars manufactured? What about the parts?

I know here, in the Piqua/Troy/Sidney/Anna/Bellefontaine area. We have thousands of jobs counting on Honda. So I, personally, and rooting for Honda. For the jobs it employs my friends, family, and my customers at my own job.

Cash for clunkers did exactly what is was supposed to up north. I have noticed a sharp decline in "US Bank Relia-Cards" from unemployment.

I personally would rather have a Nissan/Toyota/Honda made here in the US (350/370Z excluded), than a Mexican made Volkswagen, or Ford.

I think the buy American mantra still holds up, but sadly, very sadly, this seems to no longer apply to the "American" manufacturers.



Blown76mav

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2009, 19:43:45 »
While my original post was meant as a joke, being involved in the auto industry I can fill ya in on some "cash for klunkers" things that are going to impact a lot of people in the near future.

If you traded your car in for cash for clunkers, you now have to take your car back in for its "required services" This means even if your an auto technician you have to take it back to a dealer for oil changes, tune ups and those dreaded 25K, 50K and 75K services.  While this doesn't seem like a bad deal look at it this way, the government now has their hand in most of the major auto manufactures pocket.  The government will have to recoup their money somehow, so now these services are going to go through the roof.  What if you can't afford these services?  Easy the government repos your car.

What happened to all the cars traded in?  Well all the engines had to be destroyed so they couldn't be resold.  This affects the people who can't afford a new car and really had a clunker to begin with.  It also affects the junk yards they could have sold the engines to people who needed them.  Also over half of the cars destroyed the government never paid the dealers for, who now can't sell them because of junk engines.

And the biggest skunk in the whole thing, the cars are going to China where they will be melted down and resold to the U.S.  Hmmmmmm makes tons of sense there.

Also the most bought car with the cash for clunkers was Toyota, defiantly not an American made product.

BTW Ford has the most American made parts on it out of all the manufactures and was the only one who didn't need government bailout help. 

And the final kick in the groin, is when you apply for the cash for clunkers you have to go to the website, register YOUR computer and turn it over to the US Government.  It now becomes US government property.

The only good thing that came out of cash for clunkers was it got 250000 Obama bumper stickers off the road.

Can ya tell I have no love for  Obama

Mods if this is too political I'm sorry and delete this thread that was meant for fun.

Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2009, 20:03:16 »
While my original post was meant as a joke, being involved in the auto industry I can fill ya in on some "cash for klunkers" things that are going to impact a lot of people in the near future.

If you traded your car in for cash for clunkers, you now have to take your car back in for its "required services" This means even if your an auto technician you have to take it back to a dealer for oil changes, tune ups and those dreaded 25K, 50K and 75K services.  While this doesn't seem like a bad deal look at it this way, the government now has their hand in most of the major auto manufactures pocket.  The government will have to recoup their money somehow, so now these services are going to go through the roof.  What if you can't afford these services?  Easy the government repos your car.

What happened to all the cars traded in?  Well all the engines had to be destroyed so they couldn't be resold.  This affects the people who can't afford a new car and really had a clunker to begin with.  It also affects the junk yards they could have sold the engines to people who needed them.  Also over half of the cars destroyed the government never paid the dealers for, who now can't sell them because of junk engines.

And the biggest skunk in the whole thing, the cars are going to China where they will be melted down and resold to the U.S.  Hmmmmmm makes tons of sense there.

Also the most bought car with the cash for clunkers was Toyota, defiantly not an American made product.

BTW Ford has the most American made parts on it out of all the manufactures and was the only one who didn't need government bailout help. 

And the final kick in the groin, is when you apply for the cash for clunkers you have to go to the website, register YOUR computer and turn it over to the US Government.  It now becomes US government property.

The only good thing that came out of cash for clunkers was it got 250000 Obama bumper stickers off the road.

Can ya tell I have no love for  Obama

Mods if this is too political I'm sorry and delete this thread that was meant for fun.

I wasn't aware maintenance had to be done at the dealer. Thats ridiculous.

I'm VERY angry all the cars are being destroyed. Its impossible to find parts for my car as it is. I wonder how many have been destroyed.

Only the dealers had to register their PC's.

I havn't heard anything about scrap being sent to china. I know the government didn't require this. What scrap dealers do with their steel is really up to them.

And removing 250,000 Oblama stickers wasn't enough :P

Offline atreis

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2009, 07:19:31 »
I'm VERY angry all the cars are being destroyed. Its impossible to find parts for my car as it is.

Not really trying to defend this program or anything (even though I DO live in Yellow Springs, after all. ....   ;D )

Destroying the cars was the point, really.  It wasn't "clunkers" they were after, but rather fuel-inefficient vehicles.  If they had allowed them to be re-sold, then those fuel-inefficient vehicles wouldn't be off the road.  They'd still be out there guzzling up gas.

Why did Toyota and Honda benefit most?  Because they had the best lineups of fuel-efficient vehicles.

Why did Ford benefit most among the big three? (Ford had 2 cars in the top ten cash-for-clunkers list, btw ...  GM didn't show up in the top ten at all.)  Ford actually has some decent smaller fuel-efficient cars.  GM and Chrysler haven't put any effort into that category for a long time.  Sure, GM has the Avea (which is actually a re-badged Daiwoo - not a GM car at all) and the Cobalt (made in Ohio, but it really doesn't compare favorably against the competition, including domestic competition).  Ford actually put some effort into the Focus.

Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2009, 12:52:35 »
Ford actually put some effort into the Focus.


LMAO. I had a Focus. We maintained it well, oil changes ever 3-4K, etc.

At 105,000 miles, 2 weeks after we paid it off. It threw a road into low orbit. No knocks, no warning, just BOOM. I'm still a little angry about that one. 

Offline Kenn

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2009, 14:21:40 »
LMAO. I had a Focus. We maintained it well, oil changes ever 3-4K, etc.

At 105,000 miles, 2 weeks after we paid it off. It threw a road into low orbit. No knocks, no warning, just BOOM. I'm still a little angry about that one. 

So THATS what I saw in my telescope  :laugh:
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Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2009, 15:17:22 »
So THATS what I saw in my telescope  :laugh:

DOH! I meant Rod. I still have a good sized chunk of it. Picked it up out of the middle of Rt 36.

Offline Riderc82

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2009, 23:55:44 »

Destroying the cars was the point, really.  It wasn't "clunkers" they were after, but rather fuel-inefficient vehicles.  If they had allowed them to be re-sold, then those fuel-inefficient vehicles wouldn't be off the road.  They'd still be out there guzzling up gas.


I read this on The Washington Independent after the clunker program ended     "Yet there are indications that the program isn’t promoting the vehicle sales the DOT has claimed. Indeed, although the agency says the 10 best-selling vehicles under cash for clunkers are all small cars, a separate study by Edmunds.com, an auto analysis group, found that both the Ford F-150 and Chevrolet Silverado trucks have crept onto that list. The New York Times this week quoted an anonymous White House aide conceding that the program is one “in which you trade old clunkers for new clunkers.” Dealerships are reporting sales of Cadillac SRXs and Hummer H3Ts. And even Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has said that, given the chance, he’d use the program to scoop up a Ford Explorer SUV, the 4WD version of which gets just 15 miles per gallon."

I think this program is going to bite some people in the butt, probably the same people who couldn't afford their mortgages because they lived well beyond their means.  Additionally, I heard if you took advantage of the program you are going to be required to claim the car as earned income in 2009. 

O'well I'm just happy I scored my first box of .40 ammo from Wal-Mart since you know who has taken over.

 

Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2009, 00:42:20 »
What I want to know, who funded the loans? If you do the math, and assume people financed just 50% of the vehicle, most were much more, ho wmuch money is that?

Offline atreis

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2009, 17:54:20 »
The New York Times this week quoted an anonymous White House aide conceding that the program is one “in which you trade old clunkers for new clunkers.” Dealerships are reporting sales of Cadillac SRXs and Hummer H3Ts. And even Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has said that, given the chance, he’d use the program to scoop up a Ford Explorer SUV, the 4WD version of which gets just 15 miles per gallon."

Last paragraph on page 33 of the regulation:
Quote
In addition to the definitional categories, the new vehicle purchased or leased
under the program must achieve a minimum combined fuel economy level. For new
passenger automobiles the combined fuel economy must be at least 22 miles per gallon,
for category 1 trucks it must be at least 18 miles per gallon, and for category 2 trucks it
must be at least 15 miles per gallon. Category 3 trucks have no minimum fuel economy
requirement.

It goes on to define how "combined fuel economy" is calculated.  So what are those categories of trucks?

Quote
“category 1 truck” means a
non-passenger automobile, as defined in section 32901(a)(17) of title 49, United States Code, that has a
combined fuel economy value of at least 18 miles per gallon, except that such term does not include a
category 2 truck; “category 2 truck” means a large van or a large pickup, as categorized by the Secretary
using the method used by the Environmental Protection Agency and described in the report entitled “Light-
Duty Automotive Technology and Fuel Economy Trends: 1975 through 2008”; “category 3 truck” means a
work truck, as defined in section 32901(a)(19) of title 49, United States Code. Under regulations
implementing the CAFE program (see 49 CFR Part 523), “passenger automobiles” currently include all
passenger cars and “non-passenger automobiles” include all SUVs, vans and pickup trucks up to 8,500
pounds GVWR.

So, yes, if what you owned was a category 2 truck, you could indeed trade it in for a vehicle that got as little as 15 mpg.  Since a category 2 truck would be a full size van or full size pickup, 15 mpg could be an improvement.  Also, the amount of rebate given was based on a calculation that compared the combined fuel mileage of the 2 vehicles.  So if it wasn't an improvement, you wouldn't get anything anyway.  Unfortunately for category 2 trucks, any improvement was enough to qualify.

The regulations (should you care to read them): http://www.cars.gov/files/official-information/rule.pdf  (Just to warn you - it's quite lengthy.)

If you want to play with different car choices and see how much of rebate someone could have gotten: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/CarsSearchIntro.shtml  Click on the "I'm ready to begin!" button and pick various car choices.  It's interesting to see just how low the bar was set for category 2 trucks.  (Yes, you could trade a 2000 Ford F-150 V8 in for a Hummer H3 3.7L V6.  The H3 gets 2 mpg better than the F-150.  The H2 didn't qualify.  The minimum mpg was set to 15 for the new vehicle for category 2 trucks.)

Personally, I agreed with the philosophy behind the program, but not the implementation.  The bar was set way too low in terms of the required amount of improvement in MPG.  I thought it should have required at least a 10 mpg improvement to qualify for any funds at all regardless of category and a 15 mpg improvement to qualify for full funds, but of course that wouldn't fly because it would have largely excluded US car companies except for the relatively low number of trade-ins that got 15 mpg or less.  I also don't think it should have excluded cars older than 25 years.

Who funded the loans?  Banks, credit unions, and S&Ls did, the same as for any other car purchase that requires a loan.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 17:56:26 by atreis »

Blown76mav

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2009, 18:02:20 »
 I also don't think it should have excluded cars older than 25 years.


See its people like you that make people like me just want to take my 25+ year old car and park it somewhere in your body (since this is a family forum I'll let you try and figure it out)

If you destroy all the old cars there will be none left for the enthusiast.  SEMA will never let that happen thank God.  BTW my old car get as good if not better mileage than some of the new cars.  As of right now its 20 mpg, once I change the rear gears over 30.  And as far as emissions, don't even think of going there, older cars properly tuned have lower emissions.

Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2009, 19:44:15 »
See its people like you that make people like me just want to take my 25+ year old car and park it somewhere in your body (since this is a family forum I'll let you try and figure it out)

If you destroy all the old cars there will be none left for the enthusiast.  SEMA will never let that happen thank God.  BTW my old car get as good if not better mileage than some of the new cars.  As of right now its 20 mpg, once I change the rear gears over 30.  And as far as emissions, don't even think of going there, older cars properly tuned have lower emissions.

Thats what ticks me off. I'm in the same boat as you. Except one thing, parts are probably still being made for your car. Replacement body parts, and interior parts. For me I am stuck looking at the yards, or totaled vehicles. I have been looking for rockers forever so I can get this thing in paint. I FINALLY found an OEM temp gauge.

Blah!

Offline atreis

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2009, 19:58:35 »
See its people like you that make people like me just want to take my 25+ year old car and park it somewhere in your body (since this is a family forum I'll let you try and figure it out)

???  Who proposed destroying all old cars?

slandis3

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2009, 20:15:28 »
???  Who proposed destroying all old cars?



The idea behind the program was they destroyed the cars to keep them off the road.

Offline jeremyt

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2009, 20:27:08 »
whats crazy is now people who have real clunkers, (not the cars that were destroyed (mostly half way decent running cars)) will not be able to find, or pay a higher price for a used vehicle.

i cant belive that the government acted like they were surprised it was such a hit, like giving away money doesnt attract people.

Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2009, 20:41:46 »
whats crazy is now people who have real clunkers, (not the cars that were destroyed (mostly half way decent running cars)) will not be able to find, or pay a higher price for a used vehicle.

i cant belive that the government acted like they were surprised it was such a hit, like giving away money doesnt attract people.

Thats another great point. Alot of decent used cars got turned in.

Offline jeremyt

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2009, 20:47:17 »
Also, while the whole point was to stimulate the growth of the auto market and kick start the sales, it may have forced people to either hold off on buying a new car before the program started or rush into a purchase that they would have made later which may hurt new car sales in the future.

Offline atreis

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2009, 20:49:56 »
The idea behind the program was they destroyed the cars to keep them off the road.

They were only required to destroy the engine.

Anyway, the person that apparently wanted to shove his nicely restored old car somewhere seemed to think that I had proposed requiring the destruction of all old cars (like his).  That's quite a leap from what I said above.  And anyway, if implemented as I suggested, it would have been MUCH harder to qualify, there wouldn't have been any reason to add more money to the program, and fewer cars would have ended up having their engines crushed.  The net benefit in terms of fuel efficiency could have been the same even so because of the larger required difference in gas mileage.

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments about the program decreasing the availability of decent used cars.  (Another good reason that it should have been harder to qualify.)

Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2009, 21:07:23 »
I'm left wondering:

How many people qualified for a loan they otherwise could not have got with $4,500 down?

How many of those will default?

And who will bail out the banks from the defaults?

$3,000,000,000 / $4,500 = 666,666 Possible sales assuming the maximum rebate, and the whole $3B was used (it wasn't though). Assuming each car was $20K, with $4,500 down, thats $10B financed. With a 5% default, thats $500M. Not a huge loss I guess.

Blown76mav

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2009, 21:08:45 »
They were only required to destroy the engine.

Anyway, the person that apparently wanted to shove his nicely restored old car somewhere seemed to think that I had proposed requiring the destruction of all old cars (like his).  That's quite a leap from what I said above.  And anyway, if implemented as I suggested, it would have been MUCH harder to qualify, there wouldn't have been any reason to add more money to the program, and fewer cars would have ended up having their engines crushed.  The net benefit in terms of fuel efficiency could have been the same even so because of the larger required difference in gas mileage.

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments about the program decreasing the availability of decent used cars.  (Another good reason that it should have been harder to qualify.)


The engines had to be destroyed so they couldn't be resold, they are going straight to a crusher and turned into scrap metal.  By adding old cars like mine once they are turned in they will never do anybody any good except the people crushing them and turning them into scrap metal.  None of these cars are going to a junkyard where there parts can be  resold to fix other vehicles.  All it takes is for someone like you to suggest "hey lets open it up to ALL cars" and next think ya know someone is knocking on your door telling you to turn your car in.  California has been trying this for years, all they need is some more left wing people to go along with them.  Yep cars are close to me, do I think we need to do something to help save energy yep, but not a mass witch hunt on old cars (which is what the government would do in a heartbeat if they could)


Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2009, 21:21:35 »
The engines had to be destroyed so they couldn't be resold, they are going straight to a crusher and turned into scrap metal.  By adding old cars like mine once they are turned in they will never do anybody any good except the people crushing them and turning them into scrap metal.  None of these cars are going to a junkyard where there parts can be  resold to fix other vehicles.  All it takes is for someone like you to suggest "hey lets open it up to ALL cars" and next think ya know someone is knocking on your door telling you to turn your car in.  California has been trying this for years, all they need is some more left wing people to go along with them.  Yep cars are close to me, do I think we need to do something to help save energy yep, but not a mass witch hunt on old cars (which is what the government would do in a heartbeat if they could)



Thank you! Everything happens in small steps. Thank god the assault weapon ban wasn't renewed.

California still has a ban on certain rifles though. Like anything chambered in .50BMG. Lots of .50BMG driveby shootings I guess. Combine that will all the driveby bayonettings and they have a SERIOUS problem.

Cash for clunkers (or codgers hehe)could be the next small step...

Offline atreis

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2009, 06:24:11 »
The engines had to be destroyed so they couldn't be resold, they are going straight to a crusher and turned into scrap metal.  By adding old cars like mine once they are turned in they will never do anybody any good except the people crushing them and turning them into scrap metal.  None of these cars are going to a junkyard where there parts can be  resold to fix other vehicles.  All it takes is for someone like you to suggest "hey lets open it up to ALL cars" and next think ya know someone is knocking on your door telling you to turn your car in.  California has been trying this for years, all they need is some more left wing people to go along with them.  Yep cars are close to me, do I think we need to do something to help save energy yep, but not a mass witch hunt on old cars (which is what the government would do in a heartbeat if they could)

You're making ungrounded and unfounded assumptions about me without having any clue who I am.  You've labeled me (probably not inaccurately) and assume that I exactly fit your stereotype of that label without leaving room for individual variation.  You have no idea what sorts of government programs I do and don't support, why I do and don't support them, what I think about old restored cars, old cars in general, restoring cars in general, cars that aren't yet old, or even how I actually vote.

If you would really like to turn this into a political discussion, let's take it to PM.

Blown76mav

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2009, 06:35:03 »
Last paragraph on page 33 of the regulation:
It goes on to define how "combined fuel economy" is calculated.  So what are those categories of trucks?

So, yes, if what you owned was a category 2 truck, you could indeed trade it in for a vehicle that got as little as 15 mpg.  Since a category 2 truck would be a full size van or full size pickup, 15 mpg could be an improvement.  Also, the amount of rebate given was based on a calculation that compared the combined fuel mileage of the 2 vehicles.  So if it wasn't an improvement, you wouldn't get anything anyway.  Unfortunately for category 2 trucks, any improvement was enough to qualify.

The regulations (should you care to read them): http://www.cars.gov/files/official-information/rule.pdf  (Just to warn you - it's quite lengthy.)

If you want to play with different car choices and see how much of rebate someone could have gotten: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/CarsSearchIntro.shtml  Click on the "I'm ready to begin!" button and pick various car choices.  It's interesting to see just how low the bar was set for category 2 trucks.  (Yes, you could trade a 2000 Ford F-150 V8 in for a Hummer H3 3.7L V6.  The H3 gets 2 mpg better than the F-150.  The H2 didn't qualify.  The minimum mpg was set to 15 for the new vehicle for category 2 trucks.)

Personally, I agreed with the philosophy behind the program, but not the implementation.  The bar was set way too low in terms of the required amount of improvement in MPG.  I thought it should have required at least a 10 mpg improvement to qualify for any funds at all regardless of category and a 15 mpg improvement to qualify for full funds, but of course that wouldn't fly because it would have largely excluded US car companies except for the relatively low number of trade-ins that got 15 mpg or less.  I also don't think it should have excluded cars older than 25 years.

Who funded the loans?  Banks, credit unions, and S&Ls did, the same as for any other car purchase that requires a loan.


Are these not your words?

Quote
You're making ungrounded and unfounded assumptions about me without having any clue who I am.  You've labeled me (probably not inaccurately) and assume that I exactly fit your stereotype of that label without leaving room for individual variation.  You have no idea what sorts of government programs I do and don't support, why I do and don't support them, what I think about old restored cars, old cars in general, restoring cars in general, cars that aren't yet old, or even how I actually vote.

I didn't label you, you labeled yourself.  I don't really care how you vote, or what government programs you support or don't support.  You made it clear how you felt about older cars with the words above.  If those aren't your words then I appologize, but I'm pretty sure I'm quoting the right guy. 



Offline Riderc82

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2009, 17:02:39 »
When you guys solve the worlds problems send me a txt.    ;D

Offline atreis

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2009, 17:58:06 »
Are these not your words?

Yes, they're my words, and I still don't see that they have much of anything to do with your complaints.  It's really hard to imagine someone trading in a car like yours in such a program.  However, trading in, say, an '82 Honda Accord with >300k miles on it, tons of rust, some dents, a slightly bent frame, an air conditioner that hasn't worked since '93, broken fuel gauge, and burns oil (my mom has one of those, btw) I could see.  It's hard to imagine someone wanting to restore it.  There are probably a few useful parts on it and if anyone cared to do so (not likely in this case) they could be removed before destroying it so long as the engine is destroyed.

The fact of the matter is, most old cars are like that one.  They're not classic.  Aside from an example here and there, they're not going to be common targets for restoration.

I didn't label you, you labeled yourself.

You're the one that labeled me as a person who would support a program that would REQUIRE the destruction of all cars once they reach a certain age.  (I challenge you to find anywhere where I've said that I would support anything of the sort.)

In fact, what I said is that I would support a program that would give people the option to trade-in low mpg cars (regardless of age) for significantly higher mpg cars with incentives, and which would guarantee that the low mpg cars that people freely chose to trade-in under this program would not be placed back in service.  Seems to me there are probably ways to guarantee this that don't involve requiring the destruction of any part of them (such as parting them out) and I have no problem with that, although conservatives might - it would make the program more expensive.

I don't really care how you vote, or what government programs you support or don't support.

That being the case, then why would you have had such a violent initial reaction to my opinions?

Lost Floridian

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2009, 18:12:02 »
I'm gonna throw some gasoline on Lonnie's fire...

here are some of the reported cars clunked:

1987 Buick ASC GNX
1997 Aston Martin DB7 Volante
1997 Bentley Continental R
1989 20th Anniversary Pontiac Trans Am
1992 GMC Typhoon (no!)
1985 Audi Quattro
1992 BMW 850i
2006 Audi A4 Convertible
2006 Cadillac STS
2008 Foose F-150 (2)
2006 Nissan 350Z Roadster
2006 Roush Stage 3 F-150 (2)
2005 Mazda RX-8
1988 Aurora Cobra kit car
1996 Buick Funeral Coaches/Hearses
1987 Duntov GT
1987 Excalibur Autos Phaeton
1985 Maserati Quattroporte
1999 Mercedes C43 AMG
1985 TVR 280i convertible

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/24/shed-a-tear-for-clunkers-that-deserved-better/


and here are a couple of more intresting reads on the cash for clunkers program:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/26/top-ten-green-cars-that-met-their-fate-during-cash-for-clunker/
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/01/autoline-on-autoblog-with-john-mcelroy/

Blown76mav

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2009, 18:32:02 »
Thanks Will, ;D  Now I want to go curl up in a corner and cry....none of those vehicles on that list should have been included, most had some kind of collector value.  See it starts small and grows.

Like I said wasn't trying to turn a joke into a political thread.

  It obvious that atreis isn't getting it, my car didn't start out the way it is in the picture, I didn't buy it, I built it.  It was one of those ">300k miles on it, tons of rust, some dents, a slightly bent frame, an air conditioner that hasn't worked since '93, broken fuel gauge, and burns oil" and at one point in time would have qualified under atreis's thinking(again these are your words.)  I mean really who fixes up a Maverick?  Its not a Mustang or a Camaro to most it ranks right there with Honda.  To me it doesn't matter the make or model as long as someone cares enough to fix it up. My point was even if a car is all that is mentioned above someone somewhere might want to fix it up but would never have a chance if we all thought like that.

Why do I get mad even if I don't care politically what you do?   Because it directly affects me and my hobby.

You didn't implement the program, but you agreed with the program "Personally, I agreed with the philosophy behind the program" (again your words) thats what has me in a uproar, anyone who supports such a program I would tell the same things to, weather on here or face to face.

 It would be like that nut case law they were trying to pass on "native species" that would affect my reef tank.  You better believe I'm going to take a stand against anyone who tries to take my freedom from me regardless if its a hobby, way of life or religion.

I'm done, you can keep talking if ya want.  I've proved my point over and over ya just don't get it.

 

Offline atreis

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2009, 19:06:09 »
I'm done, you can keep talking if ya want.  I've proved my point over and over ya just don't get it.

I'm done too.  I've also proved my point over and over and you just don't get it.

Looks like we agree.  :)

Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2009, 22:56:46 »
I'm gonna throw some gasoline on Lonnie's fire...

here are some of the reported cars clunked:

1987 Buick ASC GNX
1997 Aston Martin DB7 Volante
1997 Bentley Continental R
1989 20th Anniversary Pontiac Trans Am
1992 GMC Typhoon (no!)
1985 Audi Quattro
1992 BMW 850i
2006 Audi A4 Convertible
2006 Cadillac STS
2008 Foose F-150 (2)
2006 Nissan 350Z Roadster
2006 Roush Stage 3 F-150 (2)
2005 Mazda RX-8
1988 Aurora Cobra kit car
1996 Buick Funeral Coaches/Hearses
1987 Duntov GT
1987 Excalibur Autos Phaeton
1985 Maserati Quattroporte
1999 Mercedes C43 AMG
1985 TVR 280i convertible

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/24/shed-a-tear-for-clunkers-that-deserved-better/


and here are a couple of more intresting reads on the cash for clunkers program:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/26/top-ten-green-cars-that-met-their-fate-during-cash-for-clunker/
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/01/autoline-on-autoblog-with-john-mcelroy/

Now I am FURIOUS!  :angryfire :angryfire :angryfire :angryfire :angryfire

The RX-8? Not a collector car yet, an enthusiast car yes. I have owned three RX-7's. Buying parts is rediculous, trust me. And many a RX-8 owner will be in the same boat in 10-15 years.

I read on the 300ZX forum something terrible. A guy and his wife both had a 300ZX. Z32 chassis. A Cherry Pearl red (like mine) 90', mint, 100K miles. Worth over $5K on the market. His wife? A Pearl white 95' Vert, same deal, less than 100K.

A Mechanic on the forum posted that they traded them in on the Clunkers program. And here I am, spending months looking for a temp gauge, IACV, MAF, and rocker panels.

Pisses me off. 

Offline cyberwollf

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2009, 23:10:20 »
I'm gonna throw some gasoline on Lonnie's fire...

here are some of the reported cars clunked:

1987 Buick ASC GNX
1997 Aston Martin DB7 Volante
1997 Bentley Continental R
1989 20th Anniversary Pontiac Trans Am
1992 GMC Typhoon (no!)
1985 Audi Quattro
1992 BMW 850i
2006 Audi A4 Convertible
2006 Cadillac STS
2008 Foose F-150 (2)
2006 Nissan 350Z Roadster
2006 Roush Stage 3 F-150 (2)
2005 Mazda RX-8
1988 Aurora Cobra kit car
1996 Buick Funeral Coaches/Hearses
1987 Duntov GT
1987 Excalibur Autos Phaeton
1985 Maserati Quattroporte
1999 Mercedes C43 AMG
1985 TVR 280i convertible

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/24/shed-a-tear-for-clunkers-that-deserved-better/


and here are a couple of more intresting reads on the cash for clunkers program:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/26/top-ten-green-cars-that-met-their-fate-during-cash-for-clunker/
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/01/autoline-on-autoblog-with-john-mcelroy/

I'm going have to say regardless of the collectors status of some of the cars....most of those people got ripped off on a $4,500 trade in...Who trades in a 3 year old 350Z for that little?
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Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2009, 23:14:45 »
I'm going have to say regardless of the collectors status of some of the cars....most of those people got ripped off on a $4,500 trade in...Who trades in a 3 year old 350Z for that little?

People who are upside down in a loan I guess. Who knows.

People suck.

Offline UD Flyer

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2009, 23:31:33 »
I'm going have to say regardless of the collectors status of some of the cars....most of those people got ripped off on a $4,500 trade in...Who trades in a 3 year old 350Z for that little?

The question is; what type of condition were those cars in at trade-in? From my understanding the car had to be running, but doesnt mean it couldn't have been totaled. lets say it was a totaled 350Z and the owner took the engine and all the expensive parts off of it and rigged up a engine that could get it from the tow truck around the corner onto the dealers lot.

Right off the bat it looks like the people trading these cars in are fools but, in reality there's a reason why those cars were traded in and the variable we dont know is the condition. Hell it could have been a completely striped car with no windows, doors, seats etc... 

But im sure some of the people who traded in the cars on this list were ignorant in their cars value to a collector/someone needing parts/ restorer etc...

Offline TechGuy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2009, 00:25:21 »
The question is; what type of condition were those cars in at trade-in? From my understanding the car had to be running, but doesnt mean it couldn't have been totaled. lets say it was a totaled 350Z and the owner took the engine and all the expensive parts off of it and rigged up a engine that could get it from the tow truck around the corner onto the dealers lot.

Right off the bat it looks like the people trading these cars in are fools but, in reality there's a reason why those cars were traded in and the variable we dont know is the condition. Hell it could have been a completely striped car with no windows, doors, seats etc... 

But im sure some of the people who traded in the cars on this list were ignorant in their cars value to a collector/someone needing parts/ restorer etc...

Its not that simple. You had to have owned the car for a year, with insurance and proof.

Although you are right. They could have been stripped. Having had a car to trade in, or a new even worth trading in for, I think thats the route I woul dhave taken honestly.

Offline JSLeedy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2009, 02:18:47 »
I have some real problems with this program aside from the obvious issues of tax dollars.  There is a reason a lot of these people were still driving "clunkers".  If they could afford a new car they would have already gotten one.  I expect to see a huge amount of repo's in the not so distant future.  There is going to be a flood on the used car market with models only a year old.  They are going to have to be almost given away just to move them off the lots.  This of course is going to murder the new car market.

By destroying the cars that were taken in is also going to have a big effect on the used parts market.  Now the poorer folks out there that drive a older car and fix it themselves with parts from junkyards and places like them are going to have a harder time finding parts and pay more when they do.  This is going t create a huge burden on these people.  When you also take into account the amount of used scrap metal we ship toour good buddies the Chinese this really wasn't the great fix it looked like on the top.

Does anyone have a list of the number of cars sold.  I know most were imports and a lot were not exactly the "green" cars this was supposed to promote.
Dayton,Ohio

Offline JSLeedy

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2009, 02:09:28 »
I may be wrong about this but I think you are required to pay taxes on the $4500 as earned income.  That means if you are in the 30% bracket your paying back $1350.  You could actually be losing money depending on what the trade in was worth.  It's great how things get covered by the indepth reporting out there.
Dayton,Ohio

Offline Amstar

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Re: Cash for Codgers!!!!!
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2009, 09:10:45 »
Reading all of this makes my head hurt.

 

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