Two-part Solution - ??? Need advice, Please

[kattz]

OK, so I bought this ASV B-Ionic two-part alkalinity and calcium supplement for my tank at the advice of an LFS.  Supposed to be good stuff. 

In testing prior to beginning of any use of this product, I've noticed that my pH has slowly fell off to around 7.8 from 8.2, alkalinity is dropping and is now at around 8.8 dKH from 10.6, calcium is at 380 ppm from an initial reading of 440-460.  I used the two-part product per the instructions, and alkalinity is now around 8.6 dKH and calcium is at 360 ppm.  My target is 10.0-10.4 dKH, 440 calcium, and 8.2 pH.

Can this product be dosed independently?  For example, if alkalinity is ok and calcium is low, can you just dose calcium and vice versa?

Their web site (ESV's) is pathetic when informing you about their product other than to make you think it's the best thing since unsliced bread.  No guidance, the bottle info is sparse at best, and so forth.

Snake oil?

Kev

[HUNGER]

never used it but maybe lazy or chromiumlux will chime in

[Blown76mav]

You can dose independently, but once the levels are where you want them you need to dose in equal parts.  Remember as one rises the other falls.  Not sure why your wanting to reduce the levels.  Alk should be between 8-11 and Ca should be 400-500.  10.6 Alk and Ca of 44-460 are great numbers.  I don't think your tank is old enough or has enough corals to require dosing, but thats just my opinion.  Remember everyone has one....

I've used the B-Ionic to level but after that I just quit dosing.  My tank still runs in the numbers posted.

[kattz]

Not reduce, increase.  Ever notice how tequila influences typng skills?

[Blown76mav]

Not reduce, increase.  Ever notice how tequila influences typng skills?

but you said in the first post, alkalinity is dropping and is now at around 8.8 dKH from 10.6, calcium is at 380 ppm from an initial reading of 440-460  I took this as a reduction.  I was thinking that you started at 10.6 Alk, and 440-460 Ca, which would be great.

[kattz]

This wasn't an intentional reduction, it's just has been dropping radically.  No control.  Rich thinks it's been due to the Purple Up carp.

[TechGuy]

This wasn't an intentional reduction, it's just has been dropping radically.  No control.  Rich thinks it's been due to the Purple Up carp.

Crap it is. There is no magic coraline solution. Except one thing, Alk and CA in perfect balance. You need to come check out my frag tank. I can't see thru it lol.

The other thing I was thinking, a long shot. You finally got everything in balance and have seen a sudden uptake in calcium (alk follows). But you don't have alot of stony corals yet. Hrmmm....

This is a new tank. Like I said, the natural, mostly hands off approach works well for me. Obviously this is an ecosystem in a box, and needs work. But less hands on, from our brief conversation you are excited, and want things to be perfect. Think of this as an F-16 (as far as I know from numerous sims), perfection comes from experience and practice. Patience. As the tank matures, it will find a delicate balance. From that balance you can perfect YOUR ideal parameters, and find the best formula for growth in your situation.

In my limited experience trying to perfect your alk/ca down to the tenths is a recipe for disaster. Every tank is unique, as unique as the reef you are trying to replicate. You have to remember every reef is different, PH/alk/CA etc.. You have a mixed reef, so your mileage may vary.

And above else, remember, what works for one, doesn't work for all. Your system is as individual as we are as people. Sit back, enjoy the tank as it goes thru numerous beautiful, and very annoying changes/cycles. :p

[cyberwollf]

No one has mentioned Mag yet. You need to read several of Randy holmesfarleys alk.cal.mag relationship articles and then read it 10 more times after your head stop hurting lol.  Higher mag levels allow higher disolved alk/cal levels becuase mag keeps alk/cal from precipitating into calcium carbonate.  As others said, if your levels are good, dont worry about dosing.  You should balance off your parameters and then hold off dosing anything for a few days and measure how far you levels drop so you know you daily consumption and can translate that into 2 part dosing, if needed. 

The one guess i would have as to why your levels dropped is too much dosing and it has precipated out.  Is there white chalky stuff growing on your pumps or has the sand been clumpy?  Not a big deal, it will eventually work itself out.

Kalk (mrs wages pickling lime) is also a super cheap dosing option.  Like 2 part, it is a balanced alk/cal dose.  With small calcium needs its usualy the cheapest way to go.

[kattz]

Nothing is precipitating out.  Sand is good and granular, no white stuff in the sump/fuge.  It was after I put the big paly ( thought they were zoa's but look more like palys after reading the description) rock in my tank that things really started going nuts.   Don't like it and want to get rid of it.  Gonna put it up in the For Sale/Trade forum.

I got some good info regarding salt and how different salt's have less calcium/alkalinity than others.  I have a completely new unopened 200 gallon bucket of Kent salt that I'm going to take back for a 175 gallon bucket of Red Sea Coral Pro.

[cyberwollf]

Nothing is precipitating out.  Sand is good and granular, no white stuff in the sump/fuge.  It was after I put the big paly ( thought they were zoa's but look more like palys after reading the description) rock in my tank that things really started going nuts.   Don't like it and want to get rid of it.  Gonna put it up in the For Sale/Trade forum.

I got some good info regarding salt and how different salt's have less calcium/alkalinity than others.  I have a completely new unopened 200 gallon bucket of Kent salt that I'm going to take back for a 175 gallon bucket of Red Sea Coral Pro.

I'm sure every bucket will some sort of deffiency. You should test all you water change water and supplement it so that it matchs you desired parameters, but I'm WAY too lazy for that lol

[kattz]

I tested the Sybon salt water that I just made because I'm set up to change 25% of my system water today.  Tests of 2-day old salt water using Sybon salt:

Salinity/sp gr - 1.025
pH - 8.6
dKH - 8.2
calcium - 380 ppm
nitrate and nitrite - 0
phosphate - 0

[cyberwollf]

yea look at the reef caclulator and figure out how much 2 part or kalk to add to get it up to where you want it

[kattz]

I didn't have a kit to test it, so I had it tested for magnesium. No magnesium.  Water change and watch it.  I'll check out the reef calc.  Thanks.

Kev

[kattz]

Waitaminute.  What reef calculator?

[harleyrider]

I didn't have a kit to test it, so I had it tested for magnesium. No magnesium.  Water change and watch it.  I'll check out the reef calc.  Thanks.

Kev

No Mag??? you gotta have your mag up to keep your Cal in sink....

[kattz]

Here's the plan.  I have 25 gallons of fresh saltwater that's going in tomorrow.  I already know that the Sybon salt is low in calcium, but is initially ok in magnesium.  I'll use the fresh saltwater for my change, and run out the rest of the Sybon salt in another water change next weekend.  I'll have to use the two-part to dose up the calcium and alk.  Meanwhile, I'll also supplement the magnesium over the next two weeks, and then check magnesium again.  My next water change after the Sybon is used up will use Tropic Marin salt, which is high in calcium and magnesium, and hopefully I can get the calcium and alk back where it belongs and keep it there.

[Coral Squad]

I will be at ESV next week in new york to pick up a buch of stuff and i will ask if thy have any better info not to hijack thread if anyone needs any of there products let me know and i can pick up while im there

[cyberwollf]

Waitaminute.  What reef calculator?

http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html  You can use it for your entire tank to raise levels, or just to correct your new saltwater before water change.

No Mag??? you gotta have your mag up to keep your Cal in sink....

Yep, how did you test it? a reasonable mag level is 1300-1500.  Your may have been low and off the scale, but there IS some mag in your tank, otherwise your cal AND alk would be super low.

Just dont do too much too quick.  Several 20% waterchanges with new SW that has been supplemented to alk/cal/mag levels you desire will go along way to fixing all your chemistry problems. AND if your coral load is not very high, 20% weekly changes could be almost all the "suppliments" you need.

[kattz]

I asked Aaron at Phishy Business to test both the new salt water and the current system water.  Alk had dropped to 7.2 dKH.  Calcium at 360.  Magnesium was very low but I didn't ask the ppm.  Calc and Alk have been dropping daily like mad regardless of what I do.

[kattz]

I will be at ESV next week in new york to pick up a buch of stuff and i will ask if thy have any better info not to hijack thread if anyone needs any of there products let me know and i can pick up while im there

Ask them to fix their website.  Please.  Thanks for the offer, I need about a gallon of B-Ionic system (calc and alk)

[cyberwollf]

I asked Aaron at Phishy Business to test both the new salt water and the current system water.  Alk had dropped to 7.2 dKH.  Calcium at 360.  Magnesium was very low but I didn't ask the ppm.  Calc and Alk have been dropping daily like mad regardless of what I do.

  They are dropping becuase your mag is not high enough to support them.  Read:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/index.php

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm

Ask them to fix their website.  Please.  Thanks for the offer, I need about a gallon of B-Ionic system (calc and alk)

Cheaper: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php