Still not sold on Saltwater =)

[rupertswife]

Hello, everyone!

My husband and I just recently set up a 75 gal saltwater tank. (It's been cycling for over a month with live rock and sand only)

We love the look of our empty tank! Probably because we have gotten so much advice from so many sources that we are just about scared to start! We've been told not to buy pre-mixed water, not to use tap water, and we have no way right now of setting up a RO/DI system. We've heard more bad stories about almost every LFS in the area, and every store we go into talks down about all the others. (With the exception of Gerbers - who seems to have the worst reputation among those online! UGH!!!)

Is it REALLY THIS HARD? If so, why would anyone want to do it? The corals are beautiful, and the fish are amazing, but frankly the whole industry seems so cut throat it's getting hard to tell the truth from the sales pitch! Now, I KNOW not everyone is this way, but really?!?!?!

After reading the 'Experiences' forum, the best SW LFS is no longer open!!! We live in Dayton, and are in the Centerville/Bellbrook area often. Is there any where around we can go to get objective advice on getting started? We subscribe to several mags, and have done tons of online research. We have decided we want a mix of corals and fish, and know pretty much what we are looking for livestock wise and what the requirements are for them, or biggest issue seems to be we can not get any consistent advice on how to make sure our water is acceptable. Everyone seems to have a different opinion and for us 'newbies' it's getting frustrating!

Sorry to dump this way, but I would really like to see something ALIVE in the tank, soon! I'm really a nice person! Honest!! LOL

Michelle

I have a large fully planted fresh water tank, and we have two other FW tanks that we have had for several years with not a single issue.

[larrynews]

once it is up and running it is easy, patience is the most important thing. i do use ro water and recommended it not all that pricey i do buy pre-mixed salt i hate the messiness of doing it myself. we all have different opinions on the way things should be done. i find what works for me and do that just use common sense that is the key. you cant keep hard corals with florescent light that the normal tank has. it is fun and you will love it. it is hard to start slow but that is the best way i lost many fish and corals by not taking my time and adding things slowly. i hope you stick with it and when you read things or people tell you things that is there experience  it is not always the way or the only way to do something.
hope this helps a little

[slandis3]

Well welcome to the club and the hobby. When you first start out in the hobby you will ask 100 people for advice and get 100 different answers. The basics are pretty easy, salinity,water temp, that stuff. But filtration can turn into a huge argument because there are so many ways to set them up. A good lfs in the centerville area is aquarium ect. The are right down from the centerville high school.As far as buying premade water, I would stay away from the stuff in a bottle on a shelf. I know aquarium ect and some other shops have nice ro/di units that sell water, all you have to do is get some jugs to carry it in. You just missed our club meeting last weekend. It was about filtration and setting up a sump or wetdry.Many of us on this site have been at this for quite a few years and will more than willing to help you out with any questions you may have.

[MechanicalEngineer]

Awww!  Well, think of it this way.  Most people start the "wrong" way, and end up with just as much frustration (and wasting a lot more money) than those that try to do it the "right" way.

The problem I've found is that there are a few sorts of people.  

1.  Old hats that found what works for them...and are still doing the same thing 20 years later (which is why undergravel filters still sell.)
2.  Old hats that keep trying to learn everything...they fail, they succeed, and pass the good advice on to us...you just have to know good advice when you hear it.
3.  Moderate level aquarists just struggling to get by
4.  Newbies who think they know everything b/c they managed to keep a non-photosynthetic gorgonian alive for 4 months and give poor advice to everyone else
5.  Newbies trying to soak up every ounce...and get swamped

Yes, this hobby has a HUGE learning curve.  But, it's not insurmountable.  The best thing you can do is to join a club like this...unbiased (or relatively so) that can give you info that is best for *you*, not our wallets.

Let's start...how are your chemicals testing?  What are you testing for?  When do you think your tank will be ready (what are you basing "ready" on?)  How much live rock and live sand do you have?

My fiance and I started our tank, and *got by* with dechlorinated tap water for about 6 months.  What happened after that was not worth the few pennies we saved.  My rocks had soaked up all of the phosphates in the water...and spent the next several months leaching it all back out into the water.  My tank really struggled for a few months.  If you're not willing to drop the money into an RO/DI unit, no worries.  What I would do is buy a $20 TDS meter (total dissolved solids) meter (measures the number of junk in the water), and check the purity of the water at LFS.  Or, only use LFS's water that will test it in front of you.  You don't need 0 TDS necessarily (I run at 11 TDS with no problems, but the lower, the better.)  Each tank is different though.  Some people have algae problems when their TDS gets to 5.  Anyway, that's a fairly inexpensive way to run a tank (although RO/DI water does cost a bit more than tap water.)  Several of our sponsors sell RO/DI water, and they'll probably show you the TDS.

Each LFS is unique and has their share of pros and cons.  Everyone probably has a preference based on their unique needs.  Some people may love a certain store because they carry awesome fish.  Another person may love a different store because they carry awesome SPS corals.  Regardless, people are going to bad mouth each store for what may be stupid reasons.

Please feel free to post any and all questions you have.  We also accept rants and raves.    Welcome to the club and hobby as well.  FWIW, I looked into a planted tank a while back, and remember thinking to myself, "wow, I could have a crazy saltwater tank for all the effort a planted tank would take!"  So, you can do it!

One last note, please feel free to post your "wanted" livestock list.  We'd be happy to look over it.

Nikki  

[lazylivin]

I think we can all relate to your frustration because all of us were there once. Most of us will recommend RO/DI water. I personaly feel it is one of the most important things. Just like we rely on fresh air our fish and coral rely on good water. Before I had a RO/DI unit I bought distilled water from the grocery store for 1$ per gallon. If you are going to buy it from a Local Fish Store ask them to show you what it reads on a TDS meter. Should be as close to zero as possible (like less then 10). If they say they don't have a meter don't buy it, it is likely not much better then tap water.
BTW: Nothing wrong with retail packaged premixed commercially available saltwater. It is expensive.

Just curious what is turning you away from RO/DI unit; the installation and space or is it the cost. If it is cost you should know that they can be had brand new for 125$, I say this just to be sure you know because places like jacks sells them for 250$+

[cyberwollf]

I think it is important to look at the goals for your tank.  some fish/coral require more maintenance, some less.  Do you plan on getting lights for SPS or stay with fish only... or somewhere in between.  the list goes on and on.

I have to admit I am just over a year in and and the information available today online is overwhelming, but if you try to define what kind of tank you want (realistically for your effort and skill level)  you can better home in on the right information.

Lesson learned: As a cheapo, I bought crap the first time to save money, and had to buy it again for quality.  As much as i hate to say it, like most other hobbies this one is expensive and addictive. <open wallet, pour into tank> 

[Arcade_Guy]

Is it REALLY THIS HARD? If so, why would anyone want to do it?

i always always thought saltwater was just too difficult and time consuming from what i'd heard from people and from what i had read on the internet. Really it's not all that bad. Of course it depends on what you want to keep in your tank that determines difficulty.. but for the most part just patience, and good solid advice. And you're in the right place for the latter. Everyone here is super nice and always ready to help.

All the great fish stores are up by you! Aquariums Ect, Marine Solutions, and the Coral Ranch isn't too terribly far from there i dont think.

anyways, welcome and enjoy the hobby!

[rupertswife]

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone!

Well, for starters so far what we have:

75 gal. overflow tank
Wet/dry sump (Not totally sure what size - standard store bought) w/ bio-balls
700 gph pump
Coral Life 130w/10k actenic (The blue lights =)) compact florescent
55-60 lbs of live rock
50-60 lbs of live sand

The tank has been cycling for just over two months, we had a pretty severe breakout of brown algae a week ago, but we pulled out all the rock scrubbed it down and it seems to have died off. As we were reading this seemed to be a good sign that the tank was completing the cycling process. We just added 10 hermits (5 ea. red and blue leg) realizing that we need MANY more! LOL So far they are the only live stock in the tank. (Other than a couple spaghetti worms...) We are starting to see some pink coralline algae and some pink coral growths.

As for what we are testing the water for....we don't really know WHAT to test for other than the nitrates, nitrites, ammonia, and Ph, and GH from a standard kit and salinity. We will look into getting the TDS meter soon, as that seems to be a highly recommended item. =) We started the tank with dechlorinized tap water and Instant Ocean salt, and our salinity is pretty stable at 1.024. We just bought a new meter that tests the water 6 inches down.....? We were told this was the proper depth to get an accurate reading.

The hold up on getting the RO/DI unit is not necessarily cost per se, but storage and set up locations. We are looking into plumbing a new sump into the basement, and setting up storage tanks, pumps, etc. We just don't want to do it twice, so we are waiting until we can plumb everything the way we want it so we won't have to tear it down.

*Just a question, does anyone sell their RO/DI water? We are thinking that if we put a system in we would have much more water than we would need, and so possibly sell what we don't use. Until then, is there anyone around who sells theirs?

A week ago we started buying water from a lfs (both pre-mixed and RO/DI) but since we have no livestock in the tank and no TDS meter we have no idea if it is effecting anything. Good or bad. It just seemed like an easy way to switch over.

As for livestock he wants mostly corals - no real idea what, we have a friend who is willing to give us a frag or two of just about anything we want to get us started. He grows only corals and live rock. As for fish, chromis, and anthias are our first choices. 

We are more than willing to be patient, it's just sorting out all the data that's getting overwhelming....We would love to attend the next meeting seeing and hearing things in person is just so much easier.

Sorry this got so long, and thanks in advance for all your help!!! I'm looking forward to posting the successes very soon!

Oh, and FWIW - MY next project is moving up from my current 55 gal planted tank to a 90 gal. =) The saltwater tank is my hubby's!

Thanks again!
Michelle

[MechanicalEngineer]

Oh, I forgot to mention...glad to have another girl on here!  (This hobby is rather male-dominant.) 

Sounds like you're in the right direction.  You're testing the right stuff until you add corals.  At that point, you'll want to test for alkalinity, magnesium, and calcium.  You'll go through several algae cycles...first are diatoms, next is usually cyanobacteria, then hair algae, then coraline algae, then sometimes the nuisance algaes like bubble algae and/or byropsis.  You can skip over stages or have multiple at once.  Regardless, it's normal.

Once piece of advice...  I started this hobby as a poor starving college student.  I got the tank for free and figured the expensive part was over.  I bought junk from Jack's, had bad advice, and luckily stumbled on this website when the worst hit my tank.  I was about to leave the hobby due to a declining wallet thickness and terrible hair algae.  I invested some money to buy the right equipment (the right equipment isn't cheap in this hobby...found that out the hard way.)  I really recommend coming up with a complete plan.  Figure out exactly which fish you want, which corals you want...and plan your equipment around that.  Otherwise, you'll upgrade constantly.  I started with normal flourescent lights (thought I wanted fish until I saw corals.)  So, I got compact flourescents and my first coral (green star polyps.)  Well, then I decided I wanted to keep SPS corals...and upgraded to metal halides.  Ugggh.  I would've saved so much money if I had just gone to metal halides to begin.

As far as you don't think you'll use your RO/DI unit enough to pay for itself...I doubt it.  We have a 75gpd unit, and all I have set up is a 40g system.  I usually make about 25 gallons of RO/DI water per week.  If I was buying that locally...figure the cost of the water, cost of the containers, the hassle of hauling water around, and gas...ugh.  We bought our unit used for $80.  I spend about $20 per year on filters.  We've had the setup now for a year and a half...worth it to me.  But, it doesn't matter.  What you guys decide to do is totally up to you.  I don't own stock in RO/DI products! 

I hate saying this, but you may want to separate your hermit crabs.  Eventually one color will win out over the other color.  I wouldn't put different species in with each other.  I started with red, blue, and zebra's...I'm down to just blue's.

Homework assignment for you guys:  look on here or any other website, and see what you think is really awesome.  Within reason, we'll help you plan a tank that can support those creatures (keep in mind, some things can't be kept well in captivity, like my avatar.)

Nikki

[UDJustin]

Im curious as to what is the only good fish store that went out of business?

[lazylivin]

As much as i hate to say it, like most other hobbies this one is expensive and addictive. <open wallet, pour into tank> 

Well said 

[Joel]

Im curious as to what is the only good fish store that went out of business?

I am curious to this as well, when you say "the best SW LFS is no longer open!!!" what shop are you making reference to?

[jjw2121]

I make about 2.5 gallons of RO/DI water per day. My TDS is about 8-10 on average.  I do a 10-15% water change every 2 weeks on my 120 gallon.  I easily make you some RO water FOR FREE.  Let me know how much you want.  I probably have 15 gallons on hand currently that I wqon't need right now. You just have to supply the buckets.  I live in Huber. Hope this may help you some. 

Welcome to the club BTW!  There is some very good info and knowledable people on thi site that has helped me since I have been a member. 

[rupertswife]

Again, thank you all SOOO much for the advice.

And, yes, I had noticed that is was mostly men. =) But that's not abnormal for me. I ride a motorcycle, too! LOL

I promise we will get a specific list of what we want written down, and go from there. The LFS that was listed as closed down was North Dixie Reef....We were in there once just after we set up the tank, but haven't been able to catch them open since. Are they open again? I work just down the road from Aquariums Etc. in Centerville and we've stopped in there a couple times just to look. We've also heard good things from a friend about Marine Solutions in Waynesville, so we will go check them out.

As much as i hate to say it, like most other hobbies this one is expensive and addictive. <open wallet, pour into tank>

Another reason I'm thankful for all your help. We want to <pour in> as little as possible, by not making too many costly mistakes....Esp. about the RO water. We will keep looking for used equipment and make that our next priority. (Along with the livestock 'wish list.')

Thanks again, all!
Michelle

[verper]

Not sure why you think that NDR was the best fish store. We love all of our sponosor LFS - Aquariums Etc, Marine Solutions, Aquatic Specialist, and the Coral Ranch.  All of them support this club and not one of them will steer you wrong.  So welcome to the forums and check them out when you get a chance.

[rupertswife]

I'm sorry to have suggested that the other stores weren't good! Not at all what I meant!

I had read the threads under "Experiences" and sooooo many people had soooooo many good things to say about them that I took that to mean they were one of the best and highly recommended.

I truly didn't mean to offend anyone!

[MechanicalEngineer]

Each store has its own following.  Like I stated before, a person may only like xyz store because they carry cool fish...and that person doesn't care about corals...and then bashes every other store.  I highly recommend the rest of our sponsors. 

[joelbegt]

The thing I regret the most was buying 100% liverock in my first seup.  My new 75 has 50LBS of bulkreefsupply.com dry rock and maybe 15Lbs of LR from the last setup, and It ended up being the perfect amount for me.  I personally recomend buying mostly dry rock If you havent bought rock yet and want savings.  The difference of $250 for 50Lbs of LR to fill my 40g compared to maybe $120ish for 50Lbs of bone dry very light rock for my 75g was worth the extra time spent curing the dry rock.


Don't forget that you can find good deals picking up frags from people on hear when your getting started.  keep your eyes pealed in the classifieds.  Lately I've been buying corals from online venders to get some harder to find stuff. 

Locally Coral ranch also seemed to have some good cheap starter corals such as large green zoa colonys for a good price.  MS is an good experience if you have never been there.

[rupertswife]

Okay! So we took the plunge!

We took our water to two different stores and had it tested, they both said everything looked great so.....


We bought our fish! =)

We have one psudanthias fasciatus - Red Stripe Anthias (aka Omen - Nemo spelled backwards!) He just needed a name, he's a real character! He will swim up to the corner of the tank where we feed them, look at us for a minute, then turn sideways, then turn back and forth until the food hits the water. As I've read about them, the adults like to swim upside down. Too cute to watch! He has great color and is very active during the day. He hides in the rocks at night but comes out looking for food when the lights come on in the morning.

And 8 itty bitty green chromis that look great as a group.

They are all eating well, and playing happily in the water flow from our powerheads. We also discovered that growing on one of our rocks is a featherduster!!! It's tiny, but very cool to watch it filter the water as it eats.

As we have been shopping the corals and other inverts, one in particular has caught our eye every time we see it. The stores have it marked as a 'pulsating xenia.' How difficult is it to keep?

[rmstevensiii]

If you do decide that you'd like some green star polyps, let me know, and I will give you some.  I'm not far from Centerville.

Pulsing Xenia can be easy to keep for some, and grow like a weed, and tough to keep for others.  IME, they grow great under PC's but at some point, 99% of entire colony seems to die out.  I've read and talked to others who have had the same experience.  I'm not sure if there is something that they need, which we cannot supply via water changes or the addition of supplements, or if a large colony (per gallon of tank volume) creates a chemical which is toxic to the colony.  Either way, if you decide to try them, start them high in the tank, if you want to confine them to a particular space.  If you start them low, they're going to move up over time and could take over that space. 

Mitch

[larrynews]

ha ha ha...we've got ya. congrats on the fish the fun now starts

[rmstevensiii]

Pic of Xenia, taking over my 75.  The upper right side is Xenia.  The left side is mostly Anthelia.  Pic is from 2007.

[rupertswife]

Thanks for the offer on the green stars! We may take you up on that. We have another friend that may be giving us some frags, we're just not sure what he has.

And, um, wow, to the Xenia's! Do they take high or medium light? We have medium light and with the Red Stripe it's recommended that we don't go to halides or to a higher powered system. Even with that warning about their growth I think we might still like to try them, it would make us feel special if our first coral grew that much! LOL

[rupertswife]

Uh, after reading about the green star polyps I might just pass! LOL Sounds like they are as invasive as the Xenia's can be! LOL

[Arcade_Guy]

both gsp and xenia can grow out of control pretty easy, placement is important i still wouldnt give up onn xenia tho, its just too cool to watch lol  i have 4 different types, one of which died off 90 percent but the others are unstoppable.
 id give you a frag of the pulsating pom pom xenia i have, but im all the way in hamilton. if youre in the area let me know!

otherwise the coral ranch has nice sized pieces for a great price!