Ich / Hospital Tank(s)?

[ZBaldwin]

I have a 120 FOWLR with a 29 gallon sump that is running about 2/3 full. I have 12 fish currently. I am in the process of adding about 55 pounds of rock to the DT that I bought from Andy about 5 weeks ago. I cured it for 4 weeks and it completely cycled. A few days ago I noticed white spots on the Picasso trigger. The next day the cowfish had them on his fins. All the fish are acting normal and eating fine, but I know that if one fish is infected, all of them are.
Now I have been doing a lot of research about getting rid of Ich and the only way to guarantee it's gone is to take ALL the fish out of the system for at least 8 weeks to let the parasites run through their life cycle with no hosts so they die out. I want to treat them by hypo-salinity to get rid of the Ich. It's supposed to be the least stressful to the fish. Now here's my questions: I have never run any type of hospital tank for a sick or injured fish... I have only been in the hobby for about 16 months. If I take all the fish out and place them in 3 smaller tanks for the duration of the 8 weeks, how do I go about that? Can I use water from my tank? Will I need to worry about a cycle? Can I add rock from the DT to prevent a cycle? I feel like putting any of the rock in the hospital tanks would somehow harbor the parasites. If I use hypo-salinity as a treatment, how will I know if it kills all the parasites? Do I keep the low salinity for the full 8 weeks?
After I get all the fish out of the tank and in the hospital tanks, should I just go ahead and add the rest of the cured rock to the DT so it can run through the 8-week no-fish period?
Sorry for the novel of questions... I just want to get this process started before the fish start getting really sick. Hopefully I can get this all fixed and get my fish back in the DT by Christmas. I appreciate any advice anyone can provide. I know most of you all are far more experienced than me and have gone through issues like this before.

[Wall_Tank]

If it is ich, it needs a fish to host.   No Fish = Death to Ich.    But it can take up to 8 weeks.    If you have a FOWLR, what other inhabitants are in the tank.    If you only have fish, you could run your whole tank in Hypo.

Hypo works, but it's not without problems.
1) Will kill any non-fish inhabitants
2) Bacteria will die off when you go from normal salinity to hypo.   So you can have problems with ammonia.
3) ph control can be a problem in hyposaline water.....make sure to add plenty of oxygen to the water.
4) Fish can go from normal salinity to hypo very fast.......(use normal acclimation processes)   But going from hypo to normal salinity is a 7 day process.
5) Yes, I would keep hypo for 8 weeks.

[Boonjob]

I agree with what paul says but with a few tweaks.... If you have the spare tanks and are able to keep them.there for the 8 weeks i would do that over the whole tank hypo.... The whole tank hypo is going to play hell on your biological filter.... If you do seperate tanks I personally would not put rock in from your dt, the hypo is going to cause alot of die off. I would just run a power filter and if the fish are skiddish use some cut pvc pieces....and do frequent water changes


Hypo is a good method if done correctly, but you will want to be sure you watch your salinity very closely.

You can use tank water at first to seed your filter but do not top off your hypo tanks with the tank water after that...

Also continue to feed your main tank while no fish are in there to keep the bio filter strong. Otherwise your gonna most likely have ammonia problems when you introduce the fish back.

[ZBaldwin]

I have a few hermit crabs and a serpent star. I know I can't do the hypo in the main tank because I read that it kills inverts just as easily as Ich. Plus I can't afford to kill off my pods. I'm trying to build a large enough population to support a mandarin dragonet.
Thanks for answering some of my many questions. If it's alright to do so, I plan on running 3  20-29 gallon hospital tanks with heaters and HOB filters on each. I will put 4 to 6 fish in each tank with existing tank water and slowly lower the salinity over a 48 hour period. Most information I have found states that the 8-week countdown starts after the last spot of Ich disappears. Then after the 8 weeks, raise the salinity back to normal over 8 days. Monitor pH, ammonia, nitrite and salinity twice a day. Daily water changes for the first week, every other day beyond that.
Am I missing anything. Anyone have any crucial information I should know before I get started?

[Boonjob]

Sounds like a plan... Depending on your Power filter you may want to use an aerator in unison, but it may not be needed if your power filter is creating enough water movement to oxygenate the water.

[ZBaldwin]

Ok. I have some extra air pumps & stones laying around. I guess it couldn't hurt. A friend of mine is lending me a few tanks to use. I have one HOB filter. So I need:
-3 heaters
-2 HOB filters
-some PVC pipe
-refractometer
-more salt for all these water changes
-a larger net to get these fish out of my DT (not looking forward to that)
If anyone knows of somewhere I can get some of this stuff for less than buying all new, I would appreciate it. And thanks again for the helpful advice so far.

[Viggen]

If you have the room it might be easier to use a Rubbermaid tub for all the fish.  125-150g tubs are $100-150 then use one larger filter for that.  Easier to do water changes on one lg tank vs multiple small tanks as well as much easier making sure the water parameters stay in check since its just one tank you need to keep tabs on.

You can also treat with copper in the tub, a month of that vs a few months of hypo treatment.  Coppersafe is available at jacks and works great!

 

[Boonjob]

The 8 weeks isn't really to clear the fish up, its to wait out the entire life cycle of the ICH in the display tank, so that you dont clear the fish just to give it right back to them. Your fish should be cured by 3-4weeks in hypo also. But depending on the life cycle of the ich, your main tank may not be ready in 3-4 weeks, Though your tank may be completely clear of ich in 3-4 weeks its not easily testable, so the 8wk mark is the starting point, as the avergage lifecycle can be as high as 60 days without a host from cyst forward...It'd even been recorded higher than that, but that is a good average as most tanks are clear around day 60-66... Your adult parasites should die within 2-4 days without a host. But it's the cycsts we are most worried about still being there when you re introduce the fish.

[volcano]

If it is ich, it needs a fish to host.   No Fish = Death to Ich.    But it can take up to 8 weeks.    If you have a FOWLR, what other inhabitants are in the tank.    If you only have fish, you could run your whole tank in Hypo.

Hypo works, but it's not without problems.
1) Will kill any non-fish inhabitants
2) Bacteria will die off when you go from normal salinity to hypo.   So you can have problems with ammonia.
3) ph control can be a problem in hyposaline water.....make sure to add plenty of oxygen to the water.
4) Fish can go from normal salinity to hypo very fast.......(use normal acclimation processes)   But going from hypo to normal salinity is a 7 day process.
5) Yes, I would keep hypo for 8 weeks.

Very well said.  I hypo all new fish.  However, I do not use rock in a QT.  I use large pvc fittings for the fish to hide out in.  You can start the hospital tanks with water from your DT.   Just run them in Hypo for 8 weeks, then take 7 days to raise the salinity on the 9th week.  Then observe your fish for another 2 weeks to make sure they are free of the parasites.  Be sure to do daily or at minimum every other day water changes and watch the pH levels closely.  You may find that badly infected fish will need a maracyn  2 antibiotic if you start to see red lesions or streaks on their sides.   

[ZBaldwin]

The 8 weeks isn't really to clear the fish up, its to wait out the entire life cycle of the ICH in the display tank, so that you dont clear the fish just to give it right back to them. Your fish should be cured in 3-4weeks in hypo also.

Ok, so after 4 weeks of hypo, I can go ahead and slowly raise the salinity back up and then just make sure they don't show anymore symptoms of Ich while still in the hospital tank until the 8-week life-cycle/die off period is over? At which point I can add them back into the main DT.

If you have the room it might be easier to use a Rubbermaid tub for all the fish.  125-150g tubs are $100-150 then use one larger filter for that.  Easier to do water changes on one lg tank vs multiple small tanks as well as much easier making sure the water parameters stay in check since its just one tank you need to keep tabs on.

You can also treat with copper in the tub, a month of that vs a few months of hypo treatment.  Coppersafe is available at jacks and works great!

I think it would be easier so monitor the health of the fish in a glass tank where they are easily visible from all sides. I do have an old 70 gallon tank in storage I guess I could use... the only problem would be getting it to my house. lol

I would rather not resort to copper. I'm not really worried about time. I know I need to be patient through this process. If I have to keep the fish out of the main tank for 8 weeks anyway, I may as well use the less stressful method.

[Wall_Tank]

Ok, so after 4 weeks of hypo, I can go ahead and slowly raise the salinity back up and then just make sure they don't show anymore symptoms of Ich while still in the hospital tank until the 8-week life-cycle/die off period is over? At which point I can add them back into the main DT.

I'm not saying 4 weeks is impossible.....it just depends on where the ich is in the life cycle.   To be certain, stay hyposaline for 8 weeks.   Then start to raise.    And just to be sure Hyposalinity should be 1.008-1.009.     1.010 is just too close to the edge.

[ZBaldwin]

I'm not saying 4 weeks is impossible.....it just depends on where the ich is in the life cycle.   To be certain, stay hyposaline for 8 weeks.   Then start to raise.    And just to be sure Hyposalinity should be 1.008-1.009.     1.010 is just too close to the edge.

Right. I read it's better to be on the low side than the high side. I am going to buy a refractometer and shoot for 1.008 and keep it there for the full 8 weeks. Now after the 9th week, when my salinity is back to normal, should I keep the fish in the HT for a while or will it be safe to reacclimate them to the main tank at that point?

[Boonjob]

Ok, so after 4 weeks of hypo, I can go ahead and slowly raise the salinity back up and then just make sure they don't show anymore symptoms of Ich while still in the hospital tank until the 8-week life-cycle/die off period is over? At which point I can add them back into the main DT.

Yes your fish most likely will be done in a matter of days with ich.... your TANK however will not....The ich can't live in Hypo, the cells collapse on them selves... Your DT however is still at normal salinity, so instead of killing the parasite with "fresh" water your are "starving" it... it can't survive with out a host, so you have to wait for it to "starve"(in lamens terms) which could take as little as a few weeks, or as long as a few months(depending on the stage of life it is in)... The average though is right around 60-66 days so it would be safe to say most tanks would be clear after day 66, so rule of thumb is to  reintroduce fish at about 8-10 weeks.

The life cycle of 8 weeks is avergage for the parasite in NORMAL conditions, meaning the correct SG, correct temp, etc)... the hypo is not normal, so the life cycle drops dramatically. your outter visible parasite will be dead in a matter of hours. Where in normal conditions it could thrive indifnitely with a host....

You COULD start to raise your FISH back up to normal salinity if you chose as soon as 3-4weeks if they show no symptoms which they should not..It's up to you and how the fish is acting mostly... The hypo is a much harsher enviroment for the ich and it can't last as long. The hypo will explode any visible parasites/cysts via osmosis, and then it's just a wait game for the internal parasite to evolve into the next stage which takes around 6-10 days, at which time they go external and explode.. and then allowing the fish's immune system to catch up to what's happening. The hypo can only kill what's on the outside of the fish and in the water, so the 3-4 weeks allows for the internal stage to come out and for recovery of the fish and it's immune system...


Feed garlic supplement during this time to help and try to stress out as little as possible low to no light should help along with pvc for structure and sense of protection....


Know that while in hypo the fish can not excrete waste as efficiently as normal salinity, so the longer you keep it in there the greater the chance of permanent kidney damage or even failure... 8 weeks would be the longest I personally ever would keep one in(now)... but the goal should be to return it as quickly as possible to normal salinity.

Also playing into this, research shows that kidney failure can happen begining at 1.007-1.008, though not always, it can, which is why nothing below 1.009 is advised. you have a very small margin to work with between what the fish can handle and what the cycsts can and you have to play right in that area which is 1.009-1.010...

[ZBaldwin]

Yes your fish most likely will be done in a matter of days with ich.... your TANK however will not....The ich can't live in Hypo, the cells collapse on them selves... Your DT however is still at normal salinity, so instead of killing the parasite with "fresh" water your are "starving" it... it can't survive with out a host, so you have to wait for it to "starve"(in lamens terms) which could take as little as a few weeks, or as long as a few months(depending on the stage of life it is in)... The average though is right around 60-66 days so it would be safe to say most tanks would be clear after day 66, so rule of thumb is to  reintroduce fish at about 8-10 weeks.


You could start to raise your fish back up to normal salinity if you chose as soon as 3-4weeks if they show no symptoms which they should not.. .the hypo is a much harsher enviroment for the ich and it can't last as long. The hypo will explode any visible parasites/cysts via osmosis, and then it's just a wait game for the internal parasite to evolve into the next stage which takes around 6-10 days, at which time they go external and explode.. and then allowing the fish's immune system to catch up to what's happening. The hypo can only kill what's on the outside of the fish and in the water, so the 3-4 weeks allows for the internal stage to come out and for recovery of the fish and it's immune system...


Feed garlic supplement during this time to help and try to stress out as little as possible low to no light should help along with pvc for structure and sense of protection....


Know that while in hypo the fish can not excrete waste as efficiently as normal salinity, so the longer you keep it in there the greater the chance of permanent kidney damage or even failure... 8 weeks would be the longest I personally ever would keep one in... but the goal should be to return it as quickly as possible.

Also playing into this, research shows that kidney failure can happen begining at 1.007-1.008, though not always, it can, which is why nothing below 1.009 is advised. you have a very small margin to work with between what the fish can handle and what the cycsts can and you have to play right in that area which is 1.009-1.010...

Awesome! Lots of good information. Thanks a ton. That kidney issue makes me nervous so if everything goes well, I will probably split the difference and run the hypo for 6 weeks and see how that works.

[Boonjob]

I should add I have hypo'd for as long as 9 weeks due to tank troubles and did not notice any difficulties with the fish..... BUT I also had no way of determining if there was or would have been kidney damage... And I'm not saying there is, I'm just saying other people smarter than me who tested it said it can. So I perosnally don't hypo much over a month to month and a half. and start to rise from there. I personally have not seen any fish that aren't back to norm after 3 weeks in hypo....

[volcano]

I have also heard of the possibility of kidney damage.  However, I have put many fish through Hypo for 8 weeks and have had no issues.  Granted, I have no way of telling if the fish have had any type of kidney damage.  I just know most all the fish are alive today.

[volcano]

I was doing some research on crypto and found on ReefCentral that your chances of eradicating Ich in a fishless tank are as follows:

"If you add percentages, you will see that approximately:
• 68% of the distribution lies within one standard deviation of the mean.
• 95% of the distribution lies within two standard deviations of the mean.
• 99.7% of the distribution lies within three standard deviations of the mean.
• 100% of the distribution lies within three standard deviations of the mean.


These percentages are known as the "empirical rule". What this means for Cryptocaryon irritans is that leaving a tank fallow for 3 weeks will give you a 68% chance that you have eradicated the parasite, leaving a tank fallow for 6 weeks will give you a 95% chance of eradication, but if you want 99.7% chance, you will leave the tank fallow for 9 weeks. That is the reason you see different numbers being used on Reef Central and in the literature. "  If you want to be positive the Ich is gone you need to go 10 full feeks.  Wow!

[ZBaldwin]

UPDATE:
Got all the fish into the hospital tank back on October 20th. The main system has been fallow for 4 weeks. I started the hypo treatment on the HT on October 29th when I finally was able to buy a refractometer. 2 of our fish died the week before I started the hypo and one more died shortly thereafter. Since then, the rest of the fish are doing great. I have seen some evidence of ich still on 2 of the fish over the past few days but they are all eating and swimming fine and are behaving normally. I've been feeding seaweed/algae sheets, frozen mysis, brine & blood worms and new life spectrum pellets soaked in vita-chem or selcon every other day. It has been surprisingly easy to maintain the correct salinity at 1.008 to 1.009... just add a small amount of RO/DI water each day to compensate for the evaporation.
The copepod population in the main tank has exploded in the absence of the fish. I am planning on buying a mandarin (red or green) after the first of the year, once I get all the fish back into the main system again. I think there's a sufficient food supply in there by now.
I am planning to keep running the hypo treatment until December 17th and then slowly raising the salinity until Christmas Day, which will be 9+ weeks of the DT being fallow and 7 weeks of hypo on the HT plus the 8 days of salinity ramp-up. At that point, if there are no more signs of the parasite, I will re-acclimate all the fish back to the DT in a certain order. I have been following this for the most part: http://www.livingreefs.com/hyposalinity-treatment-ich-t29672.html

[Wall_Tank]

Sounds like your making good progress, Be patient, You need to go hypo for at least 4 weeks after the last signs of ich.   Even if the ich is not visible, watch for scratching, that is sure sign.

Make sure your refractometer is calibrated.   Use RODI water, or you can buy calibration fluid.

[lazylivin]

That is good news ZBaldwin

The below is not in refrence to your system just wanted to make a general comment for those considering Hypo or Copper QT system

An observation I have seen with most Quarantine systems write ups on the web is the lack of filtration. A sponge filter just isn't enough and the ammonia usually kills the fish before the ich. A couple nice size pieces of good quality live rock is perfect for a hypo-salinity quarantine tank. Everything on the rock with the exception of the bacteria will perish but it will full cycle typically in 2 days to a week and be able to support the fish during the quarantine process. Like any other tank you have to let the tank cycle. Regardless of the setup. It can be a simple system:

Heater
Few pieces of live rock. Perhaps 15-20 pounds
30 gallon tank or larger depending on fish size
Something to circulate and oxgenate the water such as a cheap 15$ Hang on the back filter works good, (media not required)
Amqeul or other Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrate chemical removal should be on hand just in case a problem occurs.

[ZBaldwin]

Sounds like your making good progress, Be patient, You need to go hypo for at least 4 weeks after the last signs of ich.   Even if the ich is not visible, watch for scratching, that is sure sign.

Make sure your refractometer is calibrated.   Use RODI water, or you can buy calibration fluid.

The Valentin Puffer has several white spots on its back. I thought they were immune to ich. Any thoughts? Aside from that, the only other possible sign of ich is the Orange-Shoulder Tang regularly swims to the surface and gulps air. I know ich can infect the gills as well and this is supposed to be a symptom of that, from what I've read. All the scratching & flashing has stopped.
The refractometer I bought from Coral Cove came with calibration fluid. I calibrated it per the included instructions.
I really appreciate all the help and advise on here.

[Wall_Tank]

Can you get good pictures of the white spots.   Some fish have better defenses against ich, but immune would be a bad choice of words.   White spots can be other parasites.

Some tangs gulp air.   Look at the gill movement, does the fish look like it is gasping?

[ZBaldwin]

Can you get good pictures of the white spots.   Some fish have better defenses against ich, but immune would be a bad choice of words.   White spots can be other parasites.

It's too dark in here now to get a decent picture. I don't have lights on the HT. Even with the ceiling lights on it's pretty dim in the tank. I'll try to get one tomorrow morning.

Some tangs gulp air.   Look at the gill movement, does the fish look like it is gasping?

The tang seems perfectly fine... no gasping or heavy, labored breathing. It never did have any exterior signs of ich. Never had spots on its skin or fins. Always eats and swims around normally. Just thought it was odd that it gulps air. I don't have much experience with tangs. Maybe it's just something it's always done... only got that fish about 16 hours before I realized I had an ich problem. That was just bad timing. Wouldn't have bought it if I had noticed the ich beforehand.