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Author Topic: Nitrates going up  (Read 3446 times)

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Offline hamiltro

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Nitrates going up
« on: April 15, 2009, 20:58:11 »
Ok here is what i have 55 gallon with a fluval 305, Prizm Skimmer and about 59 lbs of LR. Well I do about 15 gal water changes bi-weekly, and everytime i test my nitrates its higher and higher, this weekend i did two 15 gallon water changes on sat on sun and today it was even higher i would say it up around the 40-80 ppm area, fish seem to be fine same as the inverts. What can or should i do to lower the nitrates? Thanks in advance
55 gal working on upgrading to 120 with a 55 Sump(unless I find a deal on a bigger tank)

Blown76mav

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2009, 21:03:43 »
Water changes but what test kit do you have?  I'd take some water to Joel or another reefer and have them test it with their kit to verify your findings.  I battled with this a couple of weeks ago, went nuts trying to figure out what was wrong, turned out my NEW test kits were bad.

Offline UD Flyer

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2009, 21:13:38 »
What type of water are you using for water changes?

Offline hamiltro

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2009, 23:32:04 »
just treated tap water until i can get a ro unit.  The saltwater sits over night with a pump turning the water, heated to tank temp also.
55 gal working on upgrading to 120 with a 55 Sump(unless I find a deal on a bigger tank)

Offline UD Flyer

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2009, 23:47:11 »
Well, if its going up higher after water changes then the tap water is most likely the culprit. Its going to be a losing battle using tap water. At the least, i would recommend buying the prepackaged gallon RO water from the store until you get a unit.

Offline Joel

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2009, 06:32:09 »
It is a good suggestion to have a reputable source test your water for comparison just to make sure your tests are reading accurately.

I have a hunch the problem lies else where though, Very specifically, what do you do to your Fluval and how often?

Joel

Offline jeblin

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2009, 07:12:25 »
The Fluval 305 is one of those cannister filters which are fairly notorious for being a nitrate factory unless you keep up on maintenance on them and even then they still produce nitrates. You'll need to read up on the "cycle" of a salt water tank and how a cannister filter comes into play versus live rock. I have a Marineland Magnum 350 (which is another one) that I have to clean regularly or I'll see the same thing. A lot of people do not like cannister filters for this specific reason. Hope it helps!

Jerry
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 07:17:49 by jeblin »

Offline Logzor

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2009, 08:41:31 »
I would disconnect the canister filter immediately. They are not meant for saltwater tanks.

Once you start using RO/DI water you will see improvement. By chance do you have a sump under your tank?

Also that skimmer could very well be undersized for the 55g. If you are feeding a certain amount it simply may not be able to keep up and more/better skimming is needed.

Offline jeblin

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2009, 12:28:41 »
I'll just say do some research on the positives and negatives on using a cannister filter on a salt water system. I would recommend a google search on using one for salt water. Lots of good information out there on the topic.


Offline hamiltro

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2009, 17:23:24 »
Thanks for all the info, rodi unit is next on the list then, i would like to look into building a sump, since space under a 55 is kind of limited.

as for cleaning the 305 i would told i just need to mess with the filter pads i clean them monthly.
55 gal working on upgrading to 120 with a 55 Sump(unless I find a deal on a bigger tank)

Offline Logzor

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2009, 18:26:27 »
Thanks for all the info, rodi unit is next on the list then, i would like to look into building a sump, since space under a 55 is kind of limited.

as for cleaning the 305 i would told i just need to mess with the filter pads i clean them monthly.

Building a sump is a great idea. It can be done with an overflow box successfully so you will not have to tear down your tank. There are also people in the area that could build a custom glass overflow for you and drill the back of your aquarium. When I finally upgraded tanks and built a sump I could never imagine not having one.

In saltwater there are three very basic types of nutrient removal systems. The protein skimmer, which exports waste into a independent chamber, live rock, sand and clean up crew (chaeto , etc), which break down organic matter, and water changes, manually exporting nutrient filled water. The reason the cansiter filter is not included is that it traps nutrients in an environment where there is no live rock, sand, or clean up crew to break down the solids. There are some bacteria but the whole process is much more efficient in the tank. The cansiter is not helpful to your system because it restricts natural systems that are already there for you.

Offline Joel

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 22:33:54 »
I'm not in agreement with everything stated on this thread and would like to offer some additional input.

The reason I asked to very specifically describe what you do to your Fluval & how often was because it was my suspicion that what you were doing (or better stated - not doing) was a major cause for the nitrate issue. Servicing this filter only once per month easily could be the majority of the problem. Regardless of what type of filtration system is being used, the dirt traps need to be cleaned minimally once per week, more often is even better. Leaving the debris in the sponge filters in your fluval for a month at a time allows the matter to accumulate and be broken down into nitrates. Cleaning the sponges at least once per week to remove the debris will significantly decrease the waste load on the system and take away from the aquarium some of what would eventually become nitrates. If you will recall, this exact subject was covered extensively at the March reef club meeting. The importance of nutrient export was a major part of the meeting topic. To recap, Nutrient export is a term that means " the physical removal of organic material" versus letting bacteria brake down the organic material into nitrates. In other words, if you take the dirt out of your filters / water, it's no longer there to brake down and eventually become nitrate as well as cause other problems.

Although canisters may have their place, I strongly advise against their use as the only or primary means of filtration. They are not convenient to service (you want to take it apart and clean it once per week or more?) & They have way to small of an area dedicated to biological filtration. These two reason alone should be enough reason to avoid this type of filter. Who ever suggested that it only needs cleaned once per month is ignorant, where do they think the waste goes? The negative of a canister so out weighs the potential benefits that I see no valid reason to use one.

On the subject of Nutrient export, it is one of the most important functions taking place in our aquariums. It doesn't matter if it's fresh or salt, fish or reef tank, the removal of waste is very important. I don't completly agree with the prior opinion on types of nutrient export though. A protein skimmer is an excellent example of nutrient export, it physically removes waste from the aquariums water. The earlier mentioned practice of regularly cleaning out your pre filters is another example of nutrient export, this is the physical removal of organic matter from your filtration system. In filtration systems that incorporate plants or algae (vegative filtration) is another example of nutrient export. The plants & algae grow by using the nutrients in the aquarium water. As these plants & algae grow and bank nutrients in their tissue, we harvest them - remove portions of them from the filter - throw them in the trash. We essentially are throwing away (exporting) nutrients when we discard the excess macro algae. Water changes are a form a of export as well.

I do not agree that live sand, live rock & clean up crew are examples of nutrient export - they simply are not. These are examples of living organisms that utilize organic waste and convert it into more broken down organic waste. None of these examples eliminate or remove waste from our system.


With your current set up, you need to do water changes more often & clean your pre filters at least weekly. An RO/Di is a good idea but is not the solution to your nitrates, better maintenance practice and more frequent water changes is the solution.

Getting a better filtration system all together would be ideal, depending on your goals a wet / dry - protein skimmer combo would be good for a fish system, a remote deep sand bed w/ a protein skimmer is a great option for a reef type system

Joel







Offline Logzor

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2009, 08:38:13 »
live rock, sand and clean up crew (chaeto , etc), which break down organic matter

I am in complete agreement regarding what you say about live, rock etc. I was not very clear and did not think that out very well. Sand and rock (the bacteria in them) break down chemicals like ammonia into less harmful ones  :). It is a vital part of biological filtration and should be included in talk about taking care of nitrates.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 08:46:49 by Logzor »

Offline Joel

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2009, 08:57:30 »
I am in complete agreement regarding what you say about live, rock etc. I was not very clear and did not think that out very well. Sand and rock (the bacteria in them) break down chemicals like ammonia into less harmful ones  :). It is a vital part of biological filtration and should be included in talk about taking care of nitrates.

Agreed,  but the statement "It is a vital part of biological filtration and should be included in talk about taking care of nitrates." implies that these processes "take care of nitrates". These processes do not help lower nitrate levels, they raise them.

Offline ohioreef

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2009, 10:12:53 »
Great write up on filtration, Joel!! Really wish I could have been at your meeting last month.

Offline Joel

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Re: Nitrates going up
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2009, 11:05:38 »
thanks

 

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