Vertex Bio-Pellets

[kattz]

Got a bag of these and am going to try them to reduce my gawdawful nitrate level.  Water changes just ain't gittin' it done.
There's a thread at http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1868736 so you can see whassup.  500ml bag of pellets from Premium Aquatics at $30 a bag.  This will comfortably dose a 90g system with a 25g sump and fuge according to the instructions. 

Bag is opened; I was assisted by the fine folks at Cabo Wabo Tequila Inc.  Having managed the complex task of opening the bag, I'm soaking the pellets in a bowl of RO water overnight per said instructions on said opened bag.  I will be filling my TLF Phosban 150 reactor with said pellets tomorrow evening.  I will keep you posted as events warrant.  Right now, phosphate at zero, nitrates at approx. 8ppm.  Goal is trace nitrates. C'mon, carpet anenome!

Kev

[TechGuy]

The bacteria will consume phosphates and nitrates together. So you need some phosphates. Luckily for you your phosphates aren't zero But your results will be better with detectable phosphates.

I used the Warner Marine pellets with decent results. Keep us updated!

[cyberwollf]

I talked to the Phishy guys at CORA swap about these, but havent read up much on them? is there a reccomended pellets per gallon or will they use only what they consume? Does it release a carbon source, or are the pellets consumed as carbon source? I assume it simply works by only keeping enough bacteria alive as the nitrates/phos in your tank support, i.e. as the nitrates get near zero less bacteria can live and thus eat less of the pellets?

[kattz]

It's akin to vodka dosing.

[cyberwollf]

It's akin to vodka dosing.

The reason I ask is if you are dosing vodka (as I am) you have to watch you dosages or you will pull TOO much nitrate out of the water and bleach stuff.  How does this stuff regulate bacteria population if you just fill a reactor up with it?

[kattz]

Wes, I'm going with the recommendations on the bag.  It states 50-200ml / 100L dosage.  So, since my system is approx 475 litres, I'm going with a 100ml / 100 L dose. Seemed like a good median point.  I've read the thread on reef central and it seems like there isn't a xxx to yyyy formula to use this item.   

[Blown76mav]

How old is this tank?  I don't think there is any reason to be using these or vodka yet.  I do believe they even state in the vodka dosing article not to do this to a new tank (less than a year)

  I say slow down, and let nature take it course.  Its probably still in a cycling stage,  8ppm of Nitrates isn't that bad, I let my tank get to 20ppm before I even think about doing anything.  If you have fish your gonna have Nitrates. 

[TechGuy]

The reason I ask is if you are dosing vodka (as I am) you have to watch you dosages or you will pull TOO much nitrate out of the water and bleach stuff.  How does this stuff regulate bacteria population if you just fill a reactor up with it?

You have a ratio of bacteria to nitrate/phosphate. As the nitrates lower, bacteria dies. So even with the pellets you will see nitrate spikes as you feed, or things die off.

The bleaching with Vodka is caused by the bacteria consuming ALL the nutrients in the tank, including amino acids. Dosing aminos helped my tank recover when I over dosed to kill bryopsis. Some people have reported a bacterial bloom with the pellets just like vodka/VSV/any carbon dosing.

From my experience with the pellets they are a MUCH slower solution to the nitrate problem. I don't think you will see alot of results in a tank that is a month old though.

[TechGuy]

  I say slow down, and let nature take it course.  Its probably still in a cycling stage,  8ppm of Nitrates isn't that bad, I let my tank get to 20ppm before I even think about doing anything.  If you have fish your gonna have Nitrates. 

Thats what I have been saying all along :p

Take it easy Kevin. Its a slow process.

[UDJustin]

I talked to the Phishy guys at CORA swap about these, but havent read up much on them? is there a reccomended pellets per gallon or will they use only what they consume? Does it release a carbon source, or are the pellets consumed as carbon source? I assume it simply works by only keeping enough bacteria alive as the nitrates/phos in your tank support, i.e. as the nitrates get near zero less bacteria can live and thus eat less of the pellets?

Wes you were talking to the guys at Premium Aquatics about this lol not Phishy

[cyberwollf]

Wes you were talking to the guys at Premium Aquatics about this lol not Phishy

Phishy, Premium....potAto potato

[UDJustin]

Phishy, Premium....potAto potato

Sure......

[kattz]

As an update, I've been running this product for 2 days.  Phosphate is at 0 ppm, nitrates are at 5 ppm.  Target is 2-3 ppm nitrates.  I've changed skimmers, so results may now vary.  Will update as further events warrant.

Phishy, Premium, they're both good. 

Kev

[CoralBeauties]

I have been controlling my nitrates with a remote deep sand bed.  I have a 5 gallon salt bucket filled with play sand and am feeding it with a maxijet 1200 pump.  Very inexpensive setup and no maintenance at all.  I do have some mangroves in my sump and a good skimmer but I have no algae in my main tank at all.  Believe me when I first started this tank I had a literal forest of algae growing in my tank.  Do give it time to work itself out.  with good maintenance and filtration it will clean up nicely.
Jeff

[harleyrider]

How old is this tank?  I don't think there is any reason to be using these or vodka yet.  I do believe they even state in the vodka dosing article not to do this to a new tank (less than a year)

  I say slow down, and let nature take it course.  Its probably still in a cycling stage,  8ppm of Nitrates isn't that bad, I let my tank get to 20ppm before I even think about doing anything.  If you have fish your gonna have Nitrates.

+1 leave it alone, give it time to cycle, it will come along ok

[harleyrider]

I have been controlling my nitrates with a remote deep sand bed.  I have a 5 gallon salt bucket filled with play sand and am feeding it with a maxijet 1200 pump.  Very inexpensive setup and no maintenance at all.  I do have some mangroves in my sump and a good skimmer but I have no algae in my main tank at all.  Believe me when I first started this tank I had a literal forest of algae growing in my tank.  Do give it time to work itself out.  with good maintenance and filtration it will clean up nicely.
Jeff

IMO thats the only way to go, good maintenance and filtration and patience, monkey see monkey do doesnt allways work!! 

[HUNGER]

+1 leave it alone, give it time to cycle, it will come along ok

+!

[kattz]

Here's the first set of numbers.  Tank ran w/o a skimmer for about two days, so this may affect the test results.

Pre-dosing 30 Sep:
Temp - 79.8F
Sp Gr - 1.026
Salinity - 35 ppt
pH - 8.2
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 8 ppm
Phosphate - 0 ppm
Magnesium - 1480 ppm
dKH - 10.6
Alkalinity - 3.77
Calcium - 470 ppm

3 Oct:
Temp - 78.9F
Sp Gr - 1.026
Salinity - 35 ppt
pH - 8.2
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 10 ppm
Phosphate - 0 ppm
Magnesium - 1490 ppm
dKH - 10.6
Alkalinity - 3.77
Calcium - 480 ppm

Other than swapping out the Vertex pellets for GFO in my reactor and changing of the skimmer, no other dosing (kalk, calcium, alk, or other supplements) have been added.

Also, a side note:  A lot of posters on Reef Central posted that they had cloudiness in their water for a day or three and that all of their corals sucked in.  I ended up dosing the minimum dose of 50 ml of pellets per 100 L of water, and I never saw this. The whole bag of 500 ml of pellets d/n really fit in the Phosban 150 unit.  250ml was the best fit, which also constituted the min dose for my system.  I also soaked the pellets in RO water overnight per the instructions.  I'm thinking that they went gonzo on the dosage and clouded their water or didn't presoak.

So, right now this is snake oil.  However, the bag and the web site say that it may take a while to begin working.

And there it is.

Kev

[TechGuy]

I can assure you its not snake oil The bacterial bloom is the same you experience when you over dose vodka/sugar/vsv. All they are is a biodegradable plastic, bacteria consumes them. They do take time to work, as the culture grows in size.

[kattz]

All I can say right now is that my tank looks awesome.  And Lonnie/Dave; I haven't moved a rock in a week!  Leavin' it alone.

[HUNGER]

thats good

[Blown76mav]

All I can say right now is that my tank looks awesome.  And Lonnie/Dave; I haven't moved a rock in a week!  Leavin' it alone.

You could move the rock everyday it won't affect anything.  When I said leave it alone I meant quit dosing, bio pellet etc...  the tank is too young to need it.  There hasn't been a sufficient cycle to need what your doing.  We've all seen this and most know where its headed.  I'm just trying to prevent you from having a crash early in this hobby.  Nothing takes the wind out of your sails as a huge lose of corals and fish.

In the end its your tank and you need to do what you think is best.

 

[kattz]

Just out of curiosity, how long should one wait?

I've been waiting for the ammonia spike for two months.  Nothing.  No nitrites, no ammonia, pH is rock steady...  If I wait, not sure what the sign is for "when the waiting's over".  I don't want the tank to crash any more than the next person, all I want is nitrates at 3 ppm or less.

[Wall_Tank]

If you seeded the tank with live sand or other source of bacteria, if you didn't overfeed, then you might not see an ammonia spike.    It sounds like you have the right setup.....on a new tank, it might be best to manage nitrates through water changes.

As far as how long to wait.....every time you change something, things take a while to stabilize.  Also, it takes time for the reef keeper to get experience too.   What are you keeping in your tank?  For most things, nitrates less than 10 really aren't a problem if all of the other tank parameters are stable.    Stability in parameters are more important than say nitrates have to be less than 3.

[TechGuy]

Just out of curiosity, how long should one wait?

I've been waiting for the ammonia spike for two months.  Nothing.  No nitrites, no ammonia, pH is rock steady...  If I wait, not sure what the sign is for "when the waiting's over".  I don't want the tank to crash any more than the next person, all I want is nitrates at 3 ppm or less.

Why? Do you have excessive algae growth? Are your nitrates so high your sps are turning brown?

My question is, what's wrong? Is it broken? Why are you aiming for 3ppm? Because the Internet said so?

Lonnie has made the best point so far. Keep screwing with stuff and you will have problems. Everything works out in the end. Quit messing with it, but like he said.. It's your tank, do with it what you will.

[kattz]

Here's what I have in my 90g:

70 lbs live rock
40 lbs live sand  - was more but sand bed was too deep
anthelia (?)
xenia
several patches of zoanthids
hairy mushrooms
some other mushrooms - not sure of the name
1 aussie blasto frag
1 4" plate coral
1 large peach hammer
1 small green torch
1 goldenrod torch frag
1 branching hammer  - 10 heads
1 elephant ear
some star polyps
4 small blue-green chromis
1 lg chromis
1 tomini tang
1 melinaris wrasse
"Paco and the Mexican gang" - hermits, narissus snails, turbo snails
1 serpent star
1 blue star

40 gal sump.  The fuge is full of cheato, caleurpa (sp), live sand, and rubble.
4 filter socks
EV-180 skimmer
Mag 9.5 main pump
Calcium reactor is not online yet.

The tank is about done and is where I want it except for the addition of a green carpet anenome and a pair of maroon clowns, and one purple tang.  Some corals may come and go in the future, but the 3 ppm nitrates is to prep for the green carpet anenome.

I initially started increasing the bioload to kickstart the ammonia cycle, but there hasn't been squat happening.  I'm changing 25% of my water weekly.

[Blown76mav]

Just out of curiosity, how long should one wait?

I've been waiting for the ammonia spike for two months.  Nothing.  No nitrites, no ammonia, pH is rock steady...  If I wait, not sure what the sign is for "when the waiting's over".  I don't want the tank to crash any more than the next person, all I want is nitrates at 3 ppm or less.

I still consider my tank relatively young at 3 yrs old.  As I've stated before I don't dose anything unless its needed.  If my Alk or Ca is low I dose until it comes into what I want.  Even with as many corals as I have I have yet to feel the need for a Ca reactor, that is trouble in a bottle if you ask me.  I know a lot of people love the automated systems but if you put your trust into automation you may never know when something is wrong until its too late. We've all read the horror stories when a float valve sticks and the ATO goes wild or a Kalk reactor goes haywire.  I have too much invested in this to have something go wrong that isnt my fault.


Please understand I'm not trying to be down on you, I'm just trying to lookout for you.  Its easy to get excited and caught up in all the cool little gadgets this hobby has to offer and if your not careful you can nuke the tank in hours.

I was once told by a good friend, "Nothing good happens quickly in this hobby, but everything bad happens quickly"

[harleyrider]

I still consider my tank relatively young at 3 yrs old.  As I've stated before I don't dose anything unless its needed.  If my Alk or Ca is low I dose until it comes into what I want.  Even with as many corals as I have I have yet to feel the need for a Ca reactor, that is trouble in a bottle if you ask me.  I know a lot of people love the automated systems but if you put your trust into automation you may never know when something is wrong until its too late. We've all read the horror stories when a float valve sticks and the ATO goes wild or a Kalk reactor goes haywire.  I have too much invested in this to have something go wrong that isnt my fault.


Please understand I'm not trying to be down on you, I'm just trying to lookout for you.  Its easy to get excited and caught up in all the cool little gadgets this hobby has to offer and if your not careful you can nuke the tank in hours.

I was once told by a good friend, "Nothing good happens quickly in this hobby, but everything bad happens quickly"

I agree with this post 100%, about 99% of the tanks crashes you read about on here and other forums are from dosing one thing or another, vodka, vitamin c...etc.  What is so funny is you set and read the post and they say ( gosh i dont know what crashed my tank) then you have the ones thats smart enough to know what happened, its very sad and kinda pisses me off when people do this because corals and fish are precious cargo, and hate to see them wasted,  Glad for them that they have that kinda money to waste. This is not aimed at anyone, but if you do any research at all, you will see this... This is just my opinion....

[HUNGER]

I still consider my tank relatively young at 3 yrs old.  As I've stated before I don't dose anything unless its needed.  If my Alk or Ca is low I dose until it comes into what I want.  Even with as many corals as I have I have yet to feel the need for a Ca reactor, that is trouble in a bottle if you ask me.  I know a lot of people love the automated systems but if you put your trust into automation you may never know when something is wrong until its too late. We've all read the horror stories when a float valve sticks and the ATO goes wild or a Kalk reactor goes haywire.  I have too much invested in this to have something go wrong that isnt my fault.


Please understand I'm not trying to be down on you, I'm just trying to lookout for you.  Its easy to get excited and caught up in all the cool little gadgets this hobby has to offer and if your not careful you can nuke the tank in hours.

I was once told by a good friend, "Nothing good happens quickly in this hobby, but everything bad happens quickly"

well said

[kattz]

Just so everyone knows, I pulled this stuff out of my tank and reinstalled GFO about 4 days ago.  Although all of the parameters except nitrates remained at ideal levels, some strange stuff started happening to my stuff; i.e., rock turned white in spots, some of the hermit's shells turned white, and my plate coral started looking really wierd.  Corals looked tired, fish were OK.  Really scary stuff IMO.  Figured that maybe I learned a lesson to stop ##$!!&( with stuff, and concentrate on the basics.   I don't need to hear "told u so".

Kev

[lazylivin]

Adding some amino acids, doing a water change or some extra meaty feedings could help put back the stuff that got stripped out of the water.

[kattz]

Big water change today.  about 35%.