Author Topic: LED LIghting (Read 3954 times)

Neogenesis · « **on:** December 02, 2011, 12:20:52 »

Hey everyone,

I was curious how many on this forum are running LED's for their main lighting over their tanks? Are they Premade LED's, DIY LED's, Halides.....etc etc etc or even a hybrid system. I was just curious to see how many have made the jump and their feeling about them.

Neogenesis · « **Reply #1 on:** December 02, 2011, 12:24:38 »

I'll start off.....I'm using all DIY LED's, I jumped on the technology very early and am glad that I did. Maybe I had cruddy fixtures for my Halides, but I never really liked them. Right now I've got 82 LED's over my 180g, but that will soon be upgraded to 96. I'm also using LED's over my frag tank as well as the nem grow out tank, which I really don't have much in right now.

I'm loving the lights, electricity savings, and no changes in spectrum or bulb changes. It's Win Win Win for me.

Todd W. · « **Reply #2 on:** December 02, 2011, 15:24:58 »

Which tank? Some of us have multiple

Ashlar · « **Reply #3 on:** December 02, 2011, 15:52:23 »

I have a tall tank, I haven't seen an LED fixture or DIY combo that can reproduce my 10kK 250w DE MH in color, penetration, and PAR (and doesn't look like a disco ball).

When someone I trust (like Sanjay Joshi) runs tests and finds a light they can endorse as comparable, I might start taking it seriously.

ah388 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 02, 2011, 16:01:51 »

I'm running the AI Sol Blue over my 34gal and loving it, highly customizable.

Neogenesis · « **Reply #5 on:** December 02, 2011, 16:07:14 »

Quote from: Ashlar on December 02, 2011, 15:52:23

I have a tall tank, I haven't seen an LED fixture or DIY combo that can reproduce my 10kK 250w DE MH in color, penetration, and PAR (and doesn't look like a disco ball).

When someone I trust (like Sanjay Joshi) runs tests and finds a light they can endorse as comparable, I might start taking it seriously.

I believe he just made a presentation at MACNA about LED's and their viability. I could be wrong though. 175g tank, how tall is it?

Ashlar · « **Reply #6 on:** December 02, 2011, 16:21:01 »

Mine's 30" tall.

I spoke with him at length the last time our club had him in for a presentation (this past summer). He said that the best LEDs at the moment have the comparability of a 150w MH, considering all factors.

HUNGER · « **Reply #7 on:** December 02, 2011, 16:41:19 »

i run 3 MH and 48 blue leds for supplmet

CoralBeauties · « **Reply #8 on:** December 02, 2011, 17:38:11 »

I have 3 diy led heat sinks over my 180 gallon and haven't regretted them one bit. I did some par testing on mine against a 10k 250w bulb and they were almost identical. I have 35 leds on each sink and the bulb I tested against wasnt that old. What I hated most about the halides was every 6 months trying to research and hopefully pick out the bulb that was just right in color, didnt lose it in a few months and the ongoing cost of replacement. Granted the leds were expensive but should pay for themselves. Probably if I was setting up a new halide system the leds wouldnt cost all that much more given they are a diy unit.
Jeff

kattz · « **Reply #9 on:** December 02, 2011, 18:21:42 »

I've got DIY LED's over my tank - 80 LED's over my 90g and adding another 40 for a 14000K 400W ability. I have excellent LPS and SPS coral growth. LED's are the best way to go right now, and DIY is the best way to go in LED if you have the most miniscule of technical skills.

And I'm sorry, but Sanjay is a) too full of himself, and b) not the LED expert that he thinks he is. My opinion as an engineer who has also built 1/8th-wave computer-driven telescopes from scratch. I admit that I'm not an EE like Wes, but I've been around optics and light for a very long time. I'm not saying that I'm better, just that I found his article in Coral Mag to be a huge disappointment.

And let me add that without jjoos and wall_tank's inspiration, I'd have never made the leap to LED's.

Kev

Ashlar · « **Reply #10 on:** December 02, 2011, 18:30:28 »

Ehn.. if you have a critique of his methodology, I'm sure he'd be happy to address it. He doesn't claim to be a guru, and is always open to questions and criticism.

He compares apples to apples. Those detractors who say, "But this is different..." are begging a logical fallacy. If a given lighting solution doesn't have the same characteristics, it just doesn't. There's no, "Yes, but.." about it.

Either it provides the same amount of PAR to the same depth or it doesn't. Either it provides the same amount of visible spectrum to the same depth or it doesn't.

*shrug*

Blazinreef · « **Reply #11 on:** December 02, 2011, 19:15:23 »

Ive got 4 AI Sol blues over my 180, and working on some green and red supplementation.

kattz · « **Reply #12 on:** December 02, 2011, 19:18:52 »

Ashlar, I was just very disappointed with the entire Coral issue that month. He's not a stupid guy, I'm just a little touchy right now, as I'm buried in college homework, and my shoulder from this rotator cuff surgery is just heinously painful. Sorry if I was a little brash.

Ashlar · « **Reply #13 on:** December 02, 2011, 19:20:52 »

No worries. No harm, no foul.

Wall_Tank · « **Reply #14 on:** December 02, 2011, 19:32:04 »

Quote from: Ashlar on December 02, 2011, 15:52:23

When someone I trust (like Sanjay Joshi) runs tests and finds a light they can endorse as comparable, I might start taking it seriously.

There is just too many very good success cases to say it is not comparable when it comes to growing coral. So whatever Sanjay is measuring is not the only thing that defines success of a tank.
- Is it different light? Yes.
- Disco Balls.?? Sure there can be some separation of LED colors, but if done right, it is not noticeable unless you look for it.
- Would I rip out a MH system that is running over a successful tank? No.
- Is there still some risk that they won't last as long as advertised? Yes. I have seen many folks overdrive or under cool LED's

Ashlar · « **Reply #15 on:** December 02, 2011, 19:37:49 »

Oh no doubt they can grow coral. When I say 'comparable', I mainly mean close to the same PAR at the same depth. That way you wouldn't have to move your corals up in the tank, if you were switching from MH lighting.

From what testing I've seen, the 'comparability' with metal halide stops at about 20-24". Below that point, the PAR seems to drop off- unless you get some narrow optics, which looks just plain silly to me.

And that's not even touching esthetics. I don't have to get out a flashlight to look into some of the shaded areas at the bottom of my tank. I haven't seen a fixture or DIY combination that begins to be able to accomplish that.

Neogenesis · « **Reply #16 on:** December 02, 2011, 19:51:11 »

I can say I'm easily getting through 24" of water with 65 degree optics, and those are older Cree XRE's. That is what my current carpet nem is living under, as well as SPS. I'm moving away from them, going all XPG, XPE under 80 degree optics. The only place I find I have problems is getting light through the 1/2" glass center brace. I'm still tweaking my colors as when I built them I was still in the cool white/blue thought process. Warm whites definitely help even out the spectrum, and I plan to test other colors as well. It's not perfect yet, but I'm getting it where I like it.

Wall_Tank · « **Reply #17 on:** December 02, 2011, 19:54:54 »

Quote from: Ashlar on December 02, 2011, 19:37:49

From what testing I've seen, the 'comparability' with metal halide stops at about 20-24". Below that point, the PAR seems to drop off- unless you get some narrow optics, which looks just plain silly to me.

And that's not even touching esthetics. I don't have to get out a flashlight to look into some of the shaded areas at the bottom of my tank. I haven't seen a fixture or DIY combination that begins to be able to accomplish that.

I can only speak to 24" tanks, I can asure you that a 3w Cree system will out perform a 250W MH system in terms of light penetration. That is what I used to run and it wasn't even close comparison. I run a few 60 degree optics in the front row where it has the deepest to penetrate, and 80 deg optics everywhere else. You can't see any spot lighting. In fact with 140 points of light over my 180gal tank, there is much more even lighting than 3 MH bulbs.

Not sure what the LED crowd is like in Texas, but there are a good number of us up here running large SPS tanks on 100% LED.

Ashlar · « **Reply #18 on:** December 02, 2011, 20:03:04 »

We've got a few folks starting up businesses doing LED lights, and we have a couple of fish stores that get the 'latest and greatest'. I borrowed a couple of them at different times (one ecotech, one semi-pro from a guy who's trying to start a business.) Neither lit up the bottom of my 30" tank like the 250w MH. Both produced pinpoints of different colored light that were clearly visible.

eta: I should add, I'd also require a fixture that I can mount at the same height as my existing lights (6-7"). I don't want to be moving the lights every night just to feed or work in the tank.

Neogenesis · « **Reply #19 on:** December 02, 2011, 20:05:13 »

Sounds like not enough LED's and the optics were too tight. I'm guessing that to get the amount of light you want, your going to have to DIY it, which is the great thing about LED's. It's so easy to do.

kattz · « **Reply #20 on:** December 02, 2011, 21:21:59 »

Ashlar, take a look at my DIY LED's in the DIY section. I have more LED's now and more PAR, and the tank doesn't even look like that anymore, but you'll get the idea. The Ecotech lights are too narrowly focused and not enough optics to give good, coherent light. Nicest concept I've seen with wireless control, but the lighting manufacturers that are into the cloudy day/storm thing are looking at aesthetics and not at practical usage. Wall_Tank has about the LED equiv of 3 300-400w MH's above his tank, and it looks really great!

Also, his and my LED arrays are 15 or more inches above the water.

Mussin · « **Reply #21 on:** December 02, 2011, 22:30:38 »

Interesting read, Im in the process of planning a 75G mix set-up, fish and softies. I am set on going LED's if they can get the job done, They DIY looks like the best way to go but im not sure if I would want to tackle it. How much would a 48" fixture run anyhow (DIY)?

Jeremy

kattz · « **Reply #22 on:** December 02, 2011, 23:14:15 »

I was replying to a PM from ReefPete 4 times tonight, but I keep having a computer BSOD; looks like the mobo is on it's way out. Not a cheap one, either!

My reply to him was on the same topic. Fish and softies don't require the type of light that the SPS's do. I'd do two 16" X the widest heatsinks you can get for future expandability. then, I'd use 24 LED's on a side, probably 2-4 warm whites, 2-4 cyan, 8-10 cool whites, and 8-10 royal blues per side. 4 Meanwell 60D-48's, 2 for the warm whites and the cool whites, one side per controller, and ditto for the royal blues and the cyans. If you wanted to really add some color and balance to the tank, I'd add 2 greens, 2 Luxdrive reds (Wall_Tank, input on those reds you were showing me?) per side, all on one 30D-27 driver. I'd use 70 deg optics on the cool whites and the royal blues, and 80 degree optics on everything else.

With a discount code, you could get the hardware from LED Reef Lights for probably around $350-400, and then you need to adapt your canopy or build one.

Neogenesis · « **Reply #23 on:** December 02, 2011, 23:21:21 »

I hated the reds when I had them in my setup. They lasted a week and I ripped them out. I'll use more Warm White before I put red in. It's just to strong and overpowering.

CoralBeauties · « **Reply #24 on:** December 02, 2011, 23:34:13 »

Your price for the 48in would depend totally on how many leds you would want to install on the heat sink. Check several of the web sites mentioned. Many of the sites give package pricing.
I dont notice any spotlighting on my system. Actually the only way I can even tell I have 2 different colors of leds is where the individual led color will come through a hole in my rock work and illuminate a spot in my open areas under the rocks. I do supplement my lighting with 2 HO t-5 bulbs (blue+). I feel it gives things alittle bit of extra punch and softens the overall look of the tank. You will tend to get some shadowing with the leds which the t-5s also help with.
I dont have as many leds on my 180 as walltank but I can testify that my corals gained alot more color after I switched over.

Reefpete · « **Reply #25 on:** December 03, 2011, 03:10:27 »

Quote from: kattz on December 02, 2011, 23:14:15

I was replying to a PM from ReefPete 4 times tonight, but I keep having a computer BSOD; looks like the mobo is on it's way out. Not a cheap one, either!

My reply to him was on the same topic. Fish and softies don't require the type of light that the SPS's do. I'd do two 16" X the widest heatsinks you can get for future expandability. then, I'd use 24 LED's on a side, probably 2-4 warm whites, 2-4 cyan, 8-10 cool whites, and 8-10 royal blues per side. 4 Meanwell 60D-48's, 2 for the warm whites and the cool whites, one side per controller, and ditto for the royal blues and the cyans. If you wanted to really add some color and balance to the tank, I'd add 2 greens, 2 Luxdrive reds (Wall_Tank, input on those reds you were showing me?) per side, all on one 30D-27 driver. I'd use 70 deg optics on the cool whites and the royal blues, and 80 degree optics on everything else.

With a discount code, you could get the hardware from LED Reef Lights for probably around $350-400, and then you need to adapt your canopy or build one.

Sorry to hear that your board crashed while replying to me. I could think of a thousand different things I'd like to be doing when mine bites the blue one.

Reefpete · « **Reply #26 on:** December 03, 2011, 03:16:12 »

Quote from: Mussin on December 02, 2011, 22:30:38

Interesting read, Im in the process of planning a 75G mix set-up, fish and softies. I am set on going LED's if they can get the job done, They DIY looks like the best way to go but im not sure if I would want to tackle it. How much would a 48" fixture run anyhow (DIY)?

Jeremy

Look at:
www.reefledlights.com There is a lot of information here. As well as some niceties that help the "not so DIY inclined"
www.rapidled.com A different aspect always helps

Wall_Tank · « **Reply #27 on:** December 03, 2011, 07:51:45 »

Quote from: Neogenesis on December 02, 2011, 23:21:21

I hated the reds when I had them in my setup. They lasted a week and I ripped them out. I'll use more Warm White before I put red in. It's just to strong and overpowering.

The red is a beneficial spectrum, but I agree with it not looking the best. I run my reds when I'm not around the tank.

Quote from: kattz on December 02, 2011, 23:14:15

2 Luxdrive reds (Wall_Tank, input on those reds you were showing me?)

I love the color, but this is for a sump light. Seeing how LED's grow cheato.....only been running for a week. You cannot get optics for them yet...... I might end up modifying some optics to fit.

The WuSue · « **Reply #28 on:** December 03, 2011, 08:43:47 »

Thinking of getting 5 units of AI LED for our new set up ... Going blue, royal blue and white. Anyone have any input on this?

kattz · « **Reply #29 on:** December 03, 2011, 10:50:49 »

Quote from: Neogenesis on December 02, 2011, 23:21:21

I hated the reds when I had them in my setup. They lasted a week and I ripped them out. I'll use more Warm White before I put red in. It's just to strong and overpowering.

I have 8 reds above my tank, all with 80 degree optics, and they run for 4 hours at 30% output during my "high noon" period. I can't visually tell that they're on, but my corals sure can! The only way that I know that they are running is by actually looking at the LEDs.

kattz · « **Reply #30 on:** December 03, 2011, 10:56:48 »

Quote from: The WuSue on December 03, 2011, 08:43:47

Thinking of getting 5 units of AI LED for our new set up ... Going blue, royal blue and white. Anyone have any input on this?

Kim at Aquatic Specialists in Troy has 6 or 8 of these above his DT at the store, and also uses them over his 300g SPS tank at home. I like them, they're pretty flexible, and I would talk to him before I order them, because he modified his optics. If I was going with store-bought, this is the direction I'd go, but they are expensive. And, if I bought 3 units, I'd have at least 1 red LED in each one. A little red is good; a lot is terrible-loking and lethal to SPS.

DarinSchmidt · « **Reply #31 on:** December 03, 2011, 12:41:30 »

DIY LED myself

CoralBeauties · « **Reply #32 on:** December 03, 2011, 22:34:42 »

kattz
How does your coral react to the reds? I am currently running just whites and blues. I never stop looking for improvements.
thanks
Jeff

kattz · « **Reply #33 on:** December 03, 2011, 23:03:58 »

I had issues with very little or slow encrustation and growth. After adding the red at noon (starting out at 15%), I noticed an uptick in the rate of encrustation. I slowly moved the output up to 30% over 4 weeks, and growth is pretty good, literally a 1000% improvement. Borneman says that reds are lethal to corals, so I'm a little concerned at going any higher right now. I have a 50/50 mix of CW/RB, with an additional 8 red LED's, and I'm not pleased with the washed-out color. The reds give a very slight amount of color back. I have plenty of PAR, but the tank looks pale until the whites start to scale back. My high noon color is the same as 2 250W 10 or 12K MH's over the tank.

The new layout I'm adding is an additional 24 RB, 12 Cyan, and 8 green. The green is an experiment, and from what I've read, you have to be really careful with green, or algae can ensue.

Neogenesis · « **Reply #34 on:** December 03, 2011, 23:24:12 »

kattz,

Try swapping out some of your CW for WW. I only did a few and was able to see a difference, a positive one in my opinion. I plan to do more, but want to replace my other 2 fixture before I do much more tweaking.

DarinSchmidt · « **Reply #35 on:** December 04, 2011, 00:14:57 »

How does Green help algae grow? Algae is green because thats the light that it reflects. That would be like trying to grow plants with green light... it takes red 640nm - 720nm or higher to grow algae. and i think its the red spectrum in the 700's thats lethal to corals but it doesnt usually pas smuch more then 3 meters in water, which is what makes it an issue in our tanks from my understanding. Feel free to correct me, thats just my understanding of it. But I'm not saying that the LEDs that you have which im assuming are prob 640nm unless you got the LEDENGINE or OSRAM leds which are 660nm couldnt be lethal with higher intensity than what you are running them at now.

kattz · « **Reply #36 on:** December 04, 2011, 09:26:15 »

Quote from: Neogenesis on December 03, 2011, 23:24:12

kattz,

Try swapping out some of your CW for WW. I only did a few and was able to see a difference, a positive one in my opinion. I plan to do more, but want to replace my other 2 fixture before I do much more tweaking.

Out of 36 CW's how many would you change to WW? 12?

kattz · « **Reply #37 on:** December 04, 2011, 09:30:19 »

Quote from: DarinSchmidt on December 04, 2011, 00:14:57

How does Green help algae grow? Algae is green because thats the light that it reflects. That would be like trying to grow plants with green light... it takes red 640nm - 720nm or higher to grow algae. and i think its the red spectrum in the 700's thats lethal to corals but it doesnt usually pas smuch more then 3 meters in water, which is what makes it an issue in our tanks from my understanding. Feel free to correct me, thats just my understanding of it. But I'm not saying that the LEDs that you have which im assuming are prob 640nm unless you got the LEDENGINE or OSRAM leds which are 660nm couldnt be lethal with higher intensity than what you are running them at now.

The greens are an experiment. My info on how the can grow algae is from something I'd read, I think it was in Calfo's Guide to Coral Propagation.

DarinSchmidt · « **Reply #38 on:** December 04, 2011, 09:33:15 »

it depends on if you are going for looks or for whats best for the corals. WW have a good amount of red in them and still some blue like the Cool whites. But for those who want a blue'r look, you'll want more CW, but if you dont mine the more, umm, yellowish red look, then add more WW. I would prob do a 50/50 WW/CW, have the WW's be XPE's and the CW's XPGs so that if the WW's are too much for your liking you can either turn them down or turn up the CW's. And with the CW's being XPG, when you turn them up, since they are more efficient, they put out more lumens per mA, so it wouldnt take much more mA to lesson the effects of the WW.

Could you post a link if you have it handy on the greens?

kattz · « **Reply #39 on:** December 04, 2011, 09:37:57 »

I don't have a link handy on the greens, and as much trouble as I'm having posting now with IE 9 and this board, I'm about ready to just quit posting. Don't feel like sorting through Cree's website for the info.

Wall_Tank · « **Reply #40 on:** December 04, 2011, 10:17:18 »

For what it is worth the Cree XP-G Cool Whites are alot warmer than the XP-E Cool Whites.

DarinSchmidt · « **Reply #41 on:** December 04, 2011, 10:59:00 »

Based on what Wall_Tank? I think it also depends on which Bins you get. The only thing i have found is on Cree's datasheets that show the RRP, the SPE's are higher in the Yellow area at ~55% and the XPG's are at 45%, that thats datasheets for you. They arent always accurate and real world physical properties with mechanical production of these can change each LED a little.

Wall_Tank · « **Reply #42 on:** December 04, 2011, 11:55:15 »

Quote from: DarinSchmidt on December 04, 2011, 10:59:00

Based on what Wall_Tank?

Based on the reviews by some and the ones I have running on my tank. I have both regular and premium bin chips as well.

DarinSchmidt · « **Reply #43 on:** December 04, 2011, 11:57:58 »

hmm, i was just wondeirng if you had anything on them. Such as do you know which BIN's yours use for the CW's? R5's are the best, not sure exactly where they fall on the Kelvin scale in the range supplied. Interesting though. I did read that XPE's can go up to 10k, but i donno which BIN actually gets close ot that as it doesnt really state it anywhere.

Wall_Tank · « **Reply #44 on:** December 04, 2011, 12:27:14 »

Everything is Bin R5, but even within that bin they can vary. I bought a few of the Cherry Picked R5 bin to see if there was any difference....

The main difference was the quality of the starboards that were used.......the starboards on the premium chips transferred heat much faster,

DarinSchmidt · « **Reply #45 on:** December 04, 2011, 12:51:56 »

ah ok, good to know. i havent had any XPE CW's, just the XPG's and they seemed pretty blue to me, but that doesnt mean that the XPE's arent bluer. Good to know, thanks for sharing.

referinohio · « **Reply #46 on:** December 13, 2011, 14:13:50 »

Right now on my 58 gallon Oceanic I have a 250 watt MH with (2) atinics. Going to a 3 heat sink
diy led fixture for the new 125. 50/50 mix Cree cool whites and royal blues.

DarinSchmidt · « **Reply #47 on:** December 13, 2011, 14:17:31 »

I like that combo myself, but i wish i would have made at least 25% of all those LEDs a 50/50 mix of blue and NW/WW. The Blues help teh corals POP and the NW/WW help give the corals some extra spectrum to feed off of.

2024 Ohio Reef Frag Swap

Author Topic: LED LIghting (Read 3954 times)