Author Topic: What eats up the ALK out of water? (Read 4141 times)

Sunny · « **on:** March 25, 2012, 11:50:46 »

I have been having trouble with ALK. I raised it in the tank after doing a water change 2 weeks ago. It was 8 drops (143.2) Checked it last night and it was 4 drops (71.6) Checked in the barrel of salt mix it is 8. In 2 weeks time, it went from 8 to 4. I run GFO and Carbon. Is there a reason why it drops?

The WuSue · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2012, 12:11:10 »

I've had a weird situation where my alk drops but not my calc. I don't remeber the specific numbers it went from and too, but it was a sizable drop, and calc stayed at 400. Could be an issue related to fresh air and the ph swings or it could be related to the corals response to better oxygenated air. Either way, the corals are happy as clams, so I'm just dozing more alk until the schedule levels itself out.

kattz · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2012, 13:21:02 »

Absolutely. There are rocks, sand, and critters in there all causing the alk to drop because they may not be using calcium. As calcium goes up, alk goes down unless being supplemented and vice versa. As magnesium goes down, alk and calcium will not stay in balance and will swing wildly or the calcium will just disappear.

micki · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2012, 13:43:44 »

I have the opposite problem. My alk is ALWAYS high! My calcium is high as well.

Sunny · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2012, 13:44:07 »

My calcium is 500+ It never goes down. How do you find a balance without dosing?

The WuSue · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2012, 15:50:43 »

Quote from: Sunny on March 25, 2012, 13:44:07

My calcium is 500+ It never goes down. How do you find a balance without dosing?

The balance I spoke of earlier was to know how much calc and alk was being used by my sps and lps so I could figure out how much to dose and balance the tank at the levels I want. If you have calc sky high and low alk what's happening is the calc is calcifying anything it can and using alk to do it. So the calc appears to never come down because its off the charts but infact it is. I had the same problem with my tank when I set it up. I eventually had to add enough alk to cause a bi carbonate storm. If you have sps and lps or crustations they are some of the ones eating your alk up. Chances are there is a crust on your heater as well. Eventually after dozing alk the calcium will come down enough to register, down the road from that you'll need to dose for that as well.

Sunny · « **Reply #6 on:** March 25, 2012, 18:43:52 »

Actually, the answer I was looking for was ... If you buy this coral and that coral, the alk and calcium will balance out ... lol

The WuSue · « **Reply #7 on:** March 25, 2012, 19:03:56 »

Indeed! Sps and lps will fix it. But you still have to add alk...lol.

micki · « **Reply #8 on:** March 25, 2012, 19:11:04 »

The normal alk in my water is very high. If anything I need to bring it down. Instead I bought a big clam to bring my calcium down! LOL

The WuSue · « **Reply #9 on:** March 25, 2012, 19:15:15 »

Micki, sounds like a great excuse for decorative shrimp.....

micki · « **Reply #10 on:** March 25, 2012, 19:18:09 »

Quote from: The WuSue on March 25, 2012, 19:15:15

Micki, sounds like a great excuse for decorative shrimp.....

Please elaborate...

kattz · « **Reply #11 on:** March 25, 2012, 19:20:50 »

Quote from: Sunny on March 25, 2012, 13:44:07

My calcium is 500+ It never goes down. How do you find a balance without dosing?

You have to dose alk to maintain the balance. Saltwater just sitting in a tank with things living in it will always need something to keep it in balance. What is your alk reading in dkH?

The WuSue · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2012, 19:51:28 »

Quote from: micki on March 25, 2012, 19:18:09

Please elaborate...

If you have high levels of alk and calc, shrimp will molt more often and take alk and calc with them in the spent shells. Of course if you leave the molting in the tank it'll break down into alk and calc again.... But let's not think of that...

micki · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2012, 19:58:53 »

Ahhhh, gotcha!

I have two shrimp in each of my tanks. 2 Cleaners in the 150 and a cleaner and blood shrimp in the 125. Would love to get a bunch of peppermints though!

Sunny · « **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2012, 22:23:10 »

Quote from: kattz on March 25, 2012, 19:20:50

What is your alk reading in dkH?

It was 4 in the tank. In the barrel of fresh salt mix, it was 8. I raised it in the barrel to 11. We did a water change today and right now it's 7.

Sunny · « **Reply #15 on:** March 25, 2012, 22:26:01 »

Quote from: micki on March 25, 2012, 19:11:04

Instead I bought a big clam to bring my calcium down! LOL

Oh, so if I get a big Clam that eats up my Calcium, it will bring my Alk up? Sounds logical to me ... lol

kattz · « **Reply #16 on:** March 25, 2012, 23:43:24 »

Actually, yes. There's some great material at Reef Central from Dr Randy Holmes-Farley and others that will explain this in terms that are not over the heads of those of us without PhDs.

It's like this; if my corals or nems look a little weird, i check alk first. If alk is low, calcium is generally ok or high. Vice versa with calcium. If I can't maintain balance of calcium and alk them magnesium is low.

And another important one, iodine in the form of potassium iodide. Shrimps and crabs need it to molt. One capfuls of iodide supplement twice a month in my tank is all that's needed.

Sunny · « **Reply #17 on:** March 26, 2012, 01:09:51 »

Micki said something about him also. I'll have to check it out. Thanks !!

Wall_Tank · « **Reply #18 on:** March 26, 2012, 07:58:24 »

Here is a link to his articles.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/author/rhf.php

I found this link as well.....it's nicely organized. We should make a page like this one and sticky it in the forum.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f162/randy-holmes-farley-articles-26533/

Sunny · « **Reply #19 on:** March 26, 2012, 09:14:55 »

I read through some of it. I hate reading ... lol Still over my head, but what I did get out of it helped. What I got was instead of raising the alk in my salt mix barrel, I should add it to my top off water barrel. We add top off water daily. So that would help it stabilize better.
In the past, I have had issues with the freshwater and pond crashing, it was due to alk problems. Our alk in the tap is only 3. I put crushed coral in the freshwater tank and a huge slab of rock in the pond, haven't had any problems since. Not sure how long the crushed coral lasts, but it's been in there for about 7-8 years now. PH is still stable.

kattz · « **Reply #20 on:** March 26, 2012, 09:57:21 »

I would strongly recommend dosing alk separately. It's consumption varies continually.

micki · « **Reply #21 on:** March 26, 2012, 12:43:41 »

Quote from: Sunny on March 26, 2012, 09:14:55

I read through some of it. I hate reading ... lol Still over my head, but what I did get out of it helped.

I know what you mean sunny, I want to see If Alk is (A) do B... If Alk is (B) do C etc...

Sunny · « **Reply #22 on:** March 26, 2012, 13:04:50 »

Quote from: micki on March 26, 2012, 12:43:41

I know what you mean sunny, I want to see If Alk is (A) do B... If Alk is (B) do C etc...

I think I'll just get a clam and call it a day .. lol

micki · « **Reply #23 on:** March 26, 2012, 13:07:28 »

Quote from: Sunny on March 26, 2012, 13:04:50

I think I'll just get a clam and call it a day .. lol

There ya go! Sounds like a plan to me!

Sunny · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2012, 13:10:51 »

I was telling Bill about the group fish buy coming up. Hopefully I can get one through that.
Good grief, I wanted a hobby, not a science project .... lol

The WuSue · « **Reply #25 on:** March 26, 2012, 13:20:55 »

I just did a bunch of testing and adding this morning. This is about as easy as I can get it.

These are the ideal levels.

Calc- 400- 430 ppm
Alk 11.2- 12.2 dkh
Mag - 1250-1350

Pretty much any hard/encrusting/sketetal coral, invetibrate or bi-valve will use up these elements (also mangroves).
Adding too calc will reduce alk.
Adding alk will reduce calc. (it will not raise and lower it proportionately)
If your levels are all over the place check mag.

Also, just an FYI, I started using the red sea test kits(box comes with alk, calc and mag) and found them too be very accurate. Plus they are cheaper than buying each of kits through salifert.

The WuSue · « **Reply #26 on:** March 26, 2012, 13:22:14 »

Hope this helps...

micki · « **Reply #27 on:** March 26, 2012, 13:23:02 »

It would be interesting to see what my Mag. tests out at. I don't have a mag test kit. I know I've tested for it before but I don't remember it being out of whack,.

The WuSue · « **Reply #28 on:** March 26, 2012, 13:31:11 »

It normally doesn't change much. Only specific organisms need large quantities of mag. My dads tank has had his mag locked and 1400 since he set it up. Only his alk and calc fluctuate.

Sunny · « **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2012, 13:32:33 »

I don't have a mag test either. I priced them on Ebay ... pricey !! Someone else told me to Red Sea was cheaper. Wonder if I can take my water to a LFS and have them test it for mag.

kattz · « **Reply #30 on:** March 26, 2012, 15:45:07 »

I have mag test...

yes, it does get out of whack.

Red Sea Reef Foundation Pro kits are expensive. Salifert is a cheaper alternative.

The WuSue · « **Reply #31 on:** March 26, 2012, 15:51:46 »

I went to aquatic specialists and picked one up for around 50 (with alk, calc and mag). To get an alk, calc and mag kit from salifert would be close to 80.

Am I looking in the wrong places?

kattz · « **Reply #32 on:** March 26, 2012, 16:09:28 »

Should be around 60 for all 3 Saliferts. 49 for Red Sea Reef Foundation Pro. Standard Red Sea kit much cheaper, as is API.

The WuSue · « **Reply #33 on:** March 26, 2012, 16:51:28 »

?

I couldn't find saliferts for less than 80 for all three kits. Is there a discount store I don't know of?

The individual red sea kits bought individually comes to 85.

As for API, I wouldn't use it unless you double the dose (i believe ashlar brought that idea to light here) to get an accurate reading. When I first started (i know it wasn't too long ago) I used API and my results were all over the place. I still have some API kits for things like copper and ammonia that I don't need to test for very often or accurately, but when it comes to the big three (or two if you don't have mangroves or the whatnot) I'd be inclined to get the better kits or drive to the store for testing.

We also have testing available for club members with hanna checkers I beleve.

Plenty of ways to save a few bucks and still be accurate.

*sorry I think I went into ranting mode there for a bit*

Imho

Sunny · « **Reply #34 on:** March 26, 2012, 17:04:29 »

I think I'll see if AS tests for mag. They are right up the street from me.

The WuSue · « **Reply #35 on:** March 26, 2012, 17:08:32 »

Sounds good!

Wall_Tank · « **Reply #36 on:** March 26, 2012, 17:22:44 »

$65 for the 3 kits from Premium Aquatics, just buy more stuff to get free shipping

kattz · « **Reply #37 on:** March 26, 2012, 18:19:29 »

Woody, check with Marine Solutions, I think they have the Red Sea Reef Foundation kit (alk, calcium, mg) complete for $49 or so.

The WuSue · « **Reply #38 on:** March 26, 2012, 18:34:16 »

Lol. That's what I was saying! If you need to get all three tests (alk, calc and mag) the red sea foundations is a slightly less expensive, yet also very reliable route to take.

BTW, this Monday just seems like it's out to get me.....anybody else having the same issue?

Ashlar · « **Reply #39 on:** April 22, 2012, 11:45:13 »

Just chiming in to correct one thing that isn't quite right..

Raising alkalinity won't depress calcium or vice-versa. Not from a chemical standpoint anyway*.

If you have critters whose growth are being limited by the amount of alkalinity in the water, and those critters also use calcium to grow, then when you boost alkalinity, calcium will be consumed along with alkalinity.

Carbonate is one of the major sources of carbon for lots of critters. Not just corals and algae, but many bacteria, pods, diatoms, dinoflagellates, etc. So even what looks like a mostly empty tank will see alkalinity drop over time.

*The only exception to this that I know is that if you blow the balance too badly, you can get a precipitation event, which will crash levels to dang near zero.

lazylivin · « **Reply #40 on:** April 22, 2012, 12:52:06 »

I always wondered what happened to Alk with FO systems no I know. Thanks

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Author Topic: What eats up the ALK out of water? (Read 4141 times)