What am I doing right?

[jd]

Hey guys. I don't test very often. Mostly because it scares the bajesus outta me. But I did a Cal/Alk test today for the first time in 3 months. 440mg/L Cal and 14dkh Alk (is that TOO high?) and my pH is abut 8.3. And, yes, Justin(Aq. Spc.) I read all the directions I don't dose anything other than some Kent Essential Elements every month or so and a few drops of Kent Iodine once a week. Granted I don't have alot of SPS or LSP, but I think I have enough to draw some cal and alk. Can my seldom water changes be keeping up with my need? I do 5 gal every 2-3wk in a 35gal system. Dear God help me, this new knowledge of (almost) correct parameters has terrified me.

[Joel]

I'd question the test results - the trend is for these elements to decrease (especially alk) There are very few naturally occurring situations that will raise your alk that high. (not impossible but highly unlikely & unusual) All the natural metabolic processes will drive your alk down, in theory, just your fish breathing can lower your alk.

Some questions;

What brand test kit did you use - did you check the expiration date?

What are the parameters of newly mixed water before you add it to your tank?

How old is the tank (approx)

Do you have oolitic / aragonite sand? If so how much, how thick and how old is it?

[jd]

What brand test kit did you use - did you check the expiration date?

API Reef Test kit, bought a few months ago. Don't know how to check the expiration date.

What are the parameters of newly mixed water before you add it to your tank?

I dunno   I'll mix up some tonight and test.

How old is the tank (approx)

1 1/2 years

Do you have oolitic / aragonite sand? If so how much, how thick and how old is it?

~3inches in a standard 29 gallon, bought new, same age as the tank.


Everything seems to be doing well. I have good polyp expansion and moderate growth. I feed Ocean Nutrition Formula One flake every other day, and frozen brine once a week.

Someone local mind testing a sample of my water?

[harleyrider]

Api the mfg date is above the label on each bottle check each bottle may be different if the bottles are low they are know sometimes to give false readings

[Reefd Up]

JD, you're always welcome to bring a sample over & I'll test it for you.  I'm probably the closest one.  We'll be home tomorrow after about 6pm.  Just call.

[Joel]

Yeah, I'd have the water tested with another brand test kit such as salifert and see what the results are. That's a good first step.

[jd]

Okay, Yikes. My testkits may be from 2006...

Nikki; could you PM me your number. I lost it. I'll bring a sample by tomorrow, thanks!

[cyberwollf]

Im curious of the results.  I use API also and they are getting close to the bottom of the bottle, Which is suppose to make them more prone to being off.

[jd]

I'll post results tomorrow. I might try to take the testkit back... Got it from a chain store, d'oh!

[jd]

Update: Just got back from Nikki and Will's (thanks again! Your stand is looking AWESOME!)

Nikki's Salifert Cal gave 360

         Salifert Alk gave 11.5 (I think, I forgot already, eleven point something)

         Electronic pH probe gave 8.6!

Came back, tested again with my test kits, making extra sure to shake each bottle and after every drop. Got the same results for Cal and Alk this time. The api pH test leaves alot to be desired, the scale is very hard to desern. I took the water over in a sealed dish for the 5 minute car ride, talked to Will about the stand/electric for 5 minutes, Nikki tested Alk and Cal, and finally the pH. Would this effect my pH? Which way? What can I do about this? See why I don't test!?

Should I be worried about my Cal and Alk values? I'll be the first to admit my knowledge of chemistry leaves much to be desired.  My Cal is a little low and my Alk a little high, right? Thanks everyone.

[Wall_Tank]

First, if the tank looks normal.  Do not over react. 

By the latter numbers, the calcium and alk are out of balance.   There are many ways to correct this, but do it slowly.....   Products I have used for this correction.   Part 2 of the ESV Bionic.   Kent Turbo Calcium

Take a look at this calculator   http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html    This will show you where your balance is, and also links to alot of articles on the subject.

What every you choose to do, test the parameters everyday while your adjusting.

[Wall_Tank]

On the PH subject. 

If you covered the water immediately after removing from the tank, and did not aireate the water.  It should give you a pretty good reading.  8.6 is a bit high.  PH problems are a bit more problematic, as you really need to figureout what is driving the PH up. 

If your tank looks good, I would try to understand everything by reading up on it before doing anything.  I think there are some links over in the links section for Randy Holmes-Farley......  Read up.

[jd]

Thanks for the insight Tom. What might be driving up pH up. I it usually about 8.0, but I haven't tested it in a while before yesterday and tonight. I've had the windows open lately, I know that effects it. Everything I have read has been on how to raise your pH.

[jd]

Read some papers on RC and looks like there are a few ways to lower it.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php

I am going to try the safest way and simple add an airstone for a day and see how it reacts. Pump more CO2 laden interior air should help by driving it into the water. In the opposite way that using an external airstone helps raise pH

[lazylivin]

That will work if your windows are closed. If they are open it will make it worse.

[jd]

Thank Brian, I wasn't thinking about that for some reason, I'll close the window and door in my office tonight.

Another thing I just thought of, which is likely the answer to my problem. I added a K3 on Sunday what agitates the surface much more and I had my skimmer off for about 6 hours yesterday as well... Maybe my system just needs some time to balance out again.

[lazylivin]

Getting your calcium back up to 400 - 425 range will help out a bit as well.

[jd]

What will the addition of cal do to my alk?

[Wall_Tank]

Getting everything in balance is a good place to start.  Just keep and eye on ph, but don't worry too much about it until everything else is in balance.

My ph is always low, I run a Ca-Reactor, and my house is well sealed.   A CO2 heaven.

[jd]

Okay, used the calculator you linked me to, it says I need to add 400ml of cal. Obviously I can't do this all at once. Can I just add part 'A' of TLF C-Balance?

I'd also like you thank everyone who has helped me out so far!

Wes, The test I did today with my API where spot on with Salifert's tests. Difference today was I shook the reagent bottles before use, not mentioned in the instructions for these tests, and I capped and shook after every drop on the Cal bottle #2 and every drop on the Alk.

[lazylivin]

Okay, used the calculator you linked me to, it says I need to add 400ml of cal.

400ML seems like an awful lot. Can you recheck that?
You are wanting to go from 360 to 400? How much water do you have?

[jd]

~45 gallons

[lazylivin]

I ran the tool and it said 180ml to bring from 360 to 400. Or were you going to go higher?

[jd]

I said 450, but 400 works also. I'm just gonna slowly bring it up and see where my alk and pH go (down, hopefully)

[lazylivin]

Are you using Instant Ocean Salt?

[jd]

Yes.

[lazylivin]

That is the source of your high alkalinity and low calcium levels. Consider purchasing a reef salt lower in Alkalinity and about 450 Calcium and mix half and half with the IO. This should give you proper levels. It is also likely that Magnesium is low. For now you are on the right track by raising your calcium over the next couple of days. No need to try and lower Alkalinity it should balance out on its own and PH will come down as soon as you close the windows.

[lazylivin]

Here is a chart that may help picking a salt to mix with the IO to get the best balance

[lazylivin]

I debating posting this cause did not want to start up the great salt debate again.  

I use Tunze salt right out of the bag just because it is at the levels I keep me reef tank.

[cyberwollf]

Wes, The test I did today with my API where spot on with Salifert's tests. Difference today was I shook the reagent bottles before use, not mentioned in the instructions for these tests, and I capped and shook after every drop on the Cal bottle #2 and every drop on the Alk.

something else I have read, if you haven't been shaking the bottles each time, you may have used more of the regent in the bottle solution and that can permently throw off the results as you approach the end of a bottle

[harleyrider]

That is the source of your high alkalinity and low calcium levels. Consider purchasing a reef salt lower in Alkalinity and about 450 Calcium and mix half and half with the IO. This should give you proper levels. It is also likely that Magnesium is low. For now you are on the right track by raising your calcium over the next couple of days. No need to try and lower Alkalinity it should balance out on its own and PH will come down as soon as you close the windows.

Dont i wish, my cal stays at a constant cal of 420, and a steady 7 on alk and i dose with Pro buffer dkh, ph is a constant 8.4 go figure

[Joel]

I know I had mentioned it earlier but; Have you tested brand new mixed up water yet?

I use I/O regularly and typically it's Alk is lower than the values shown on the graph that Brian posted and lower than the values in your tank. Certainly it is possible that your alk is that high because of the salt you are using but until you test, you are guessing.

I have spent a lot of time trying to fix something by doing water changes only to find out it was the new saltwater causing the problem. The thread about mixing up saltwater has some good information on this subject.

If your ALK is higher than you want it, I don't think trying to do something to the tank to lower it is the best or safest idea. First & foremost, determine where your getting this high value from, then start working on correcting it. For example, as Brian suggested, if your I/O has excessively high ALk when you mix it up, use another brand or get another bag that mixes closer to where you want it, then start doing water changes to adjust ti where you want it to be. (again in this process you need to test your brand new water to determine that is has the values you are wanting)

Did you (or Nikki) check your mag? It is typically low with I/O as well.

Bringing your ca up is simple but take it slow. You easily could bring it up in just a few minutes but I don't suggest it. Small daily doses until you've reached your goal is safer. It's always easier to add a little more than deal with it being to high and much less stressful on your tank inhabitants. Using the Calcium only part of C-balance is fine and should not cause any additional ALK or PH issues.  It is highly likley that your elevated PH is being caused by your higher alk level, they are not the same but Alk does influance your ph. I believe that slightly lowering your alk will also adjust your PH. Don't try to fix both at the same time. Just test daily to see where everything is and in time you will learn what, how much and how often you need to add trace elements to keep your tank where you want it.

Joel

[jd]

Lazy, Thanks for the chart. I'm not going to start any debate I've been using I/O mostly because I ran out of salt a while ago and someone gave me some to hold me over. Does your Tunze mix up to those values? Where do you get it from?

Joel, I will mix up some new water tonight and check it. Nikki checked my mag for me and got 1300 ppm. I am just going to add cal and see where that gets me.

Wes, I defiantly check your kits against someone else, gave me some piece of mind. (as long as I use the test correctly!)

I'm going to mix up new water after work, and check my pH again tonight, I closed the windows this morning, its supposed to rain.

Thanks again guys.

[Reefd Up]

JD, your Mag was 1350...sheesh...get it straight!

[jd]

Nikki, to be honest I forgot all the numbers you said immediately after you told them to me.  Mixing/testing right now.

[Reefd Up]

Ca:  360
Alk:  11.5
Mag:  1350
pH:  8.6

According to Salifert's test kits and a handheld pH probe

[jd]

Ca:  360
Alk:  11.5
Mag:  1350
pH:  8.6

According to Salifert's test kits and a handheld pH probe

You've got a mind like a steal trap . Thanks again for testing for me, I really appreciate it! I even remembered most of the results!

Studying now, salt is mixing. Did another pH test but it was hard to decern... Anyone have the Salifert pH test? How do you like it? I might pick one up tonight.

[jd]

Time for SCIENCE!

Mixed up two gallons of salt water at 1.024. Mixed in a 5 gallon bucket for about 3 hours with a K1 powerhead.

pH: ~8.3 (Buying a new test kit from premium aquatics)

Cal: 440 mg/l

Alk 25 dKH TWENTYFIVE!

Didn't believe it, tested again, same result. Tested my tank and for 11, same a Nikki's test.

For good measure, tested my tank again, cal 360mg/L.  pH looks around 8.4, but the next scale is 8.8...

Looks like I need some new salt, stat!

[jd]

When I named this thread "What am I doing right?" I was being ironic, but I think that is biting me in the butt. 

[lazylivin]

Alk 25 dKH TWENTYFIVE!

You sure that was salt you were mixing?

[jd]

You sure that was salt you were mixing?

That is what I though. I can see why my alk is high in my tank. I think this is a first time someone got lucky and DIDN'T do many water changes... Shame on me for not checking first. I think this might have something to do with me not having the whole bucket of salt. I usually mix the bucket but when I got some from my friend, I just took the top off...

[cyberwollf]

Disreguard that box of baking soda you accidently knocked in 

[jd]

I knew I should'nt store my bulk baking soda in that extra IO bucket

May have found my problem, what should my ALK me from my faucet? Can I even test freshwater with my kit?

[TechGuy]

I knew I should'nt store my bulk baking soda in that extra IO bucket

May have found my problem, what should my ALK me from my faucet? Can I even test freshwater with my kit?

Carbonate Hardness = Yes for API kits.

[jd]

Will RO/DI unit strip it of its alkalinity?

[lazylivin]

If working properly yes it will.