I believe I'll buy a sump

[~reefchik~]

I'm not going to build one, let's face it.  DH is too busy to even think of asking for help.  I don't know why it never occurred to me before to google SUMPS online. Duh.... 

So I did that today, and there are some interesting models out there.  I like some designs better than others.  If I'm going to do this, I may as well go whole-hog and do a refugium/sump anyway. 

Tomorrow I want to try and make a final decision.  I'll call around to the local guys and see if Marine Solutions or Justin carry something like that in stock, because cash & carry beats shipping any day.  Is there anyone else around here that might carry sumps?

If not, I still have a convo going with a local guy from this list who has something used that might still work.

The ones I like most are these (and opinions are welcomed:)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170368634492

http://www.aquariumguys.com/advance-series-sump.html

http://www.aquariumguys.com/bubble-less-reservoir.html

http://www.aquariumsupplycompany.com/catalog/item/3231887/2765116.htm  <<< now this one includes the skimmer, which probably isn't the best quality one, but still it seems like a good package. 

then there is the Lifereef guy but he doesn't publish his prices.  He's got some nice looking units, but I didn't have time to call him today to ask.  I'm guessing his are up there price-wise, though.

[Reefd Up]

First one...
I don't like how the water just flows straight across the middle section.  If you stick a DSB there, you're good...but if you stick macroalgae there, it won't get enough flow and waste exchange.

Second one...
Can't see enough of it to tell.

Third one...
You have some flexibility with that one.  I'd ditch the sponge and throw some rubble in there or something else.

Fourth one...
That skimmer probably isn't worth its weight in acrylic.  I think you'd be paying for a lot of unnecessary frills.

If I had to pick between the 4...I'd go with the 3rd and buy a separate skimmer.  Don't skimp on a good skimmer...it's not worth it later.  You may also want to check with Lonnie (Blown76Mav) and see if he would build you something better.

[jd]

Steph, I hate to see you spend so much on a sump! Making one is VERY easy. I did my first in about 2 hours, my second in about 30mins. Please consider building one yourself. I think you will be much happier with the results! If you don't have a caulk gun, the whole things might run you $50 bucks. $25 for the baffles, $10 for the caulk gun, $5 for the caulk, plus however much the tank will be. Check craig's list for some cheap tanks.

[harleyrider]

i was down at Marine Solutions this past weekend, they had a couple setting down there, depending on what room you have under the tank, i know its a 48 long but not for sure what your height is to put a good skimmer in you refuge, yours looks just like one i sold a while back, but may not be the same but i only had i beleive 22 inchs..

[~reefchik~]

JD, I'd need someone to cut pieces of glass or acrylic to measure, right?
I have silicone and I have a couple 10 gallon tanks in the basement not being used.  I could probably even use my current 20 gallon tank, but I was thinking it might be best to leave it as a QT tank. 

harleyrider, 48" will be too long.  This has to go inside a stock pine AGA stand.  My door openings are only 15" wide, the base is 17" front to back and the height to the bottom of the tank is about 24". 

Reef'd Up,  I keep hearing that about a skimmer.  Must be the voice of experience    I think I like #3 the best so far too.  Maybe Lonnie will respond to the thread, too. 

[jd]

Steph, Look at fifteen gallon tanks, they are 24x12x12. I think the Justin from Aqt. Spec. mentioned that your center brace can come off your stand. If that was the case, I'd look into getting a 20gallon long. I would go with glass baffles. I got mine from Lowes for about 4 bucks each. I use GE brand silicone '1', becareful that the silicone you do use doesn't have any anti-mold agents in it.

Edit: Even if it would be a hassle, Draining the tank down, sliding it away from the wall to install the sump is a better idea. I'm not a fan of cutting braces and such

[Reefd Up]

JD, I'd need someone to cut pieces of glass or acrylic to measure, right?
I have silicone and I have a couple 10 gallon tanks in the basement not being used.  I could probably even use my current 20 gallon tank, but I was thinking it might be best to leave it as a QT tank. 

Heh heh, you underestimate redneck engineering!  If you pick up the sheets of plexiglass (the smaller ones...they're like around a normal piece of paper size) for about $1.50 each at Lowe's...some silicone (I've always used the aquarium silicone)...and a 10g tank...that's all you need. 

The smaller sheets of plexiglass don't fit perfectly in, but you can silicone them in on a diagonal.  Yes, normally silicone doesn't adhere well with glass, but on a 10g sump, it's not a big deal b/c there's not enough pressure.  Don't believe me?  Come check out my 10g diagonal baffle sump that has been running for about 2+ years now.  So, for a whopping $20 you can have a sump that isn't exactly attractive...but works.  It'll take maybe an hour to make...24 hours+ to cure.  Oh, you'll need duct tape too.   

I did a similiar thing with a 20g tank...but cut the plexiglass with a carpet cutter (we have a saw now for it.)  There's too much pressure with a 20g...so the baffles leak pretty badly.  But, my 10g baffles are solid. 

[jd]

Nikki, I have heard (dangerous statment, I know) that because acrylic and glass adsorb different amounts of water and thus, swell at different rates that if acrylic baffles are too snug you can bust the seems in a tank. Maybe someone can put their two cents in on that matter. In any case, Acrylic sheets cut small and the gaps filled with silicone should be fine. Lowes cuts acrylic sheets also. I think its $.25 a cut. The cut glass for free.

[harleyrider]

a ten gallon refugium on a 90 gallon tank

[Reefd Up]

I never said it was the best idea...just said it works if she's in a pinch.  I didn't see in this thread that she was going to use it on a 90g tank (been gone for 2 weeks...so I haven't been reading a lot.)  She also said that she had a 10g tank she could use.  Just trying to be helpful.

JD, you're right...the acyrlic will flex more than the glass...faster.  That's why it has to be on a really small scale that the pressure isn't too much.  On a 10g done this way, yes, the acrylic will bend, but it'll hold. 

[~reefchik~]

Nikki, no problem.  Yes, it's a 90.  Not so much that I'm in a pinch, just trying to figure out the best solution.  20-30 gallon sump is more what I'm thinking. 

As for cutting braces    I can't imagine anyone having the nerve to cut away part of a wooden stand while the full tank is on top.  Sounds like a Darwin Award in the making to me 

I never heard that about acrylic and glass swelling at different rates.  That could be a problem. 

[UD Flyer]

Yes, I would ill advice taking any bracing off of your stand. It is possible to take the middle brace out as long as there is something bracing the cross members of the tank. It may work for some people, but 90 gallons plus sand and rock isn’t worth it falling through. The wooden upright may be stapled but it’s more structurally sound upright then being taken off, regardless if it’s stapled, screwed or nailed.

 Definitely a Darwin award nomination if it falls through.

There are some “kits” that I saw on ebay when I clicked on the links about that are already precut and all that needs to be done is siliconed in. It may be worth looking into, and much cheaper if you can use an existing tank.

[Aquatic Specialists]

You can bring in your old tank and I can drill it hear in the shop, cut your baffle plates, seal it up, with aquarium sealent, the whole nine yards. It is much cheaper to make your own as opposed to buying one....a lot cheaper. With some of the designs on the sumps out there...let's just say there is a lot of unnecessary parts and inefficiencies to them. As far as that center upright goes don't cut it out, just pop it loose long enough to get a tank in there and put it back. Think back to the old wrought iron stands, they work with no center support. I built enormous racks here in the shop, that contain 40+ aquariums, and the load is all in the corners. Either way you could always use a little ingenuity and make a temporary brace that would be out of your way and  hold it for a short period. A 2x4 notched and cut at angle would work fine. Either way I do have a couple of  sumps in house or I can make you one.

[harleyrider]

thanks udflyer, glad to see someone agrees with me about choppin up that stand, Reefchic, my advice to you is go as big as you can on that refuge that will work, ive got a 30 long on my 55g it gets me by but thats about it, infact im in the process of putting a 90g into service, and im putting a 55 gal refuge on it, if youd like to see my 30 refuge, your more than welcome to im not far from you, but you would see what im sayin about size just let me know

[harleyrider]

Duane & Justin, did you guys build your stands with 3/4 wood, probly not you probly used 2x4 or 2x6 which i agree with, but that 3/4 crap like they built that stand with, no way id take it out, i had that same stand and that center brace the one in the middle is also notched at top and bottom for support and to equalize.

[Aquatic Specialists]

I believe there is a big misconception on the removing of the center brace. I never said cut it, chop it, hack it to pieces, just simply use another temporary brace and remove the center, as to be out of the way, replace the center brace and then remove the temporary brace. By doing that at no time would there be a worry about lack of support.

[UD Flyer]

I never said cut it, chop it, hack it to pieces, just simply use another temporary brace and remove the center, as to be out of the way, replace the center brace and then remove the temporary brace.

Actually you said "Usually those pine built stands are just stapled together and that center upright is just for show and the doors. It really has no load bearing issues. The load is all in the corners. That board can be removed and replaced easily enough if you wanted to go with a larger sump. "

A temporary brace was not implied or mentioned.


Reefchik, the cheapest thing would let a fellow member help you assemble one. The easiest, with money not being that big of a factor would buy a prefab one. I actually built one in a 20 gallon long and only took about an hour to build and an day's wait time for the silicone to cure. If you do decide to build your own just make sure you buy acrylic or glass that is thick enough so that there is no bowing or failing of the baffles because of the waters pressure/weight.

heres a picture of one I just sold on here:

[rayviv]

I'm not going to build one, let's face it.  DH is too busy to even think of asking for help.  I don't know why it never occurred to me before to google SUMPS online. Duh....  

So I did that today, and there are some interesting models out there.  I like some designs better than others.  If I'm going to do this, I may as well go whole-hog and do a refugium/sump anyway.  

Tomorrow I want to try and make a final decision.  I'll call around to the local guys and see if Marine Solutions or Justin carry something like that in stock, because cash & carry beats shipping any day.  Is there anyone else around here that might carry sumps?

If not, I still have a convo going with a local guy from this list who has something used that might still work.

The ones I like most are these (and opinions are welcomed:)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170368634492

http://www.aquariumguys.com/advance-series-sump.html

http://www.aquariumguys.com/bubble-less-reservoir.html

http://www.aquariumsupplycompany.com/catalog/item/3231887/2765116.htm  <<< now this one includes the skimmer, which probably isn't the best quality one, but still it seems like a good package.  

then there is the Lifereef guy but he doesn't publish his prices.  He's got some nice looking units, but I didn't have time to call him today to ask.  I'm guessing his are up there price-wise, though.

This is one that you need to look at. I wish I could do this with mine

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg46/lunatik_69/DSCN0322.jpg

[jungliztkruger]

blown76mav does great work... i have like the second sump he ever made and it performs great. it is worth your time to talk to him

[verper]

When Aquarium Adventures was open down in Mason they had all kinds of 4" AGA stands there for tanks all the way up to 150 gal - Some with and some without center braces.  They even had some that had a center brace in the front for the doors to close onto but no brace in the back.  Everything OVER 4' had center braces.  Using my woodworker eyes I can state that they were made using the cheapest materials and fasteners available. 1x4 PINE (not even a hardwood) and staples for most fasteners.  The only thing going for them was the miracle of gravity - they made sure the tank corners sat right over two 1x4 pine pieces fastened at a 90 degree angle.  Remember, these are the official AGA tank stands that are available to keep your tank warranty in good standing with them.  If you don't believe any of this, I think there is still an Aquarium Adventures open in Columbus.  Go take a look see.

That being said, I agree with Justin from Aquatic Specialists.  The two things a 4' or less stand must do is hold the weight of the tank on the corners and not rack.  Removing and replacing the brace will not cause a problem.  My own 120 gal stand that I build based on what I saw with the AGA stands has no center braces -although it is built with 1x oak (hardwood), glue, and pocket screws.  Its been up for 4 years and the tank is at least a few years older than that with no leaks.

[Aquatic Specialists]

Well I do apologize for not being specific enough. I will try to be a little more clear and descriptive next time. Thank you Scott for backing that up, it's very true.

[~reefchik~]

Rayviv, that is a nice setup, isn't it?  I like the mangroves.  I brought back some mangrove pods to Ohio years ago (before I knew it was illegal).  My mom had a house on the bay and there were piles of these things washed up on the sand/oyster bar at low tide by her house.







ETA:  I didn't know who I was replying to

[~reefchik~]

I'm paralyzed now!  Information overload.  Too many choices and not enough experience to make an informed decision.   
I also have PMs from a few members who have things they could sell me. 

All PMs have been answered, at any rate. 

[harleyrider]

your best bet is just use common since, it will all work out! Good luck!

[rayviv]

I'm paralyzed now!  Information overload.  Too many choices and not enough experience to make an informed decision.   
I also have PMs from a few members who have things they could sell me. 

All PMs have been answered, at any rate. 

If it is not a 'must hurry' job I would definatly take time and decide what is going to be the best option.

(I did not know it was illegal) 

[harleyrider]

Everything OVER 4' had center braces.  Using my woodworker eyes I can state that they were made using the cheapest materials and fasteners available. 1x4 PINE (not even a hardwood) and staples for most fasteners.      Your right to a point but it is 4' AND OVER on all that aquarium adventures sell do to support....removal or tampering with center brace voids your waranty,,yes they are still open and there are 3 other locations open,

[slandis3]

If i was wanting to set up a sump with the setup you have now. I would build my own stand to house a nice size sump. I think this would be the best way to do it. This is just my opinion. Or, you could build a sump with the 20g tank you have now. Drain your 90g tank remove the center brace install the sump the refill the 90g tank.If your on a budget the 2nd option would be the cheapest.

[~reefchik~]

If it is not a 'must hurry' job I would definatly take time and decide what is going to be the best option.

(I did not know it was illegal) 

Yep, it's illegal to take mangrove pods out of the State.  Or at least it used to be. 

[TechGuy]

Everything OVER 4' had center braces.  Using my woodworker eyes I can state that they were made using the cheapest materials and fasteners available. 1x4 PINE (not even a hardwood) and staples for most fasteners.      Your right to a point but it is 4' AND OVER on all that aquarium adventures sell do to support....removal or tampering with center brace voids your waranty,,yes they are still open and there are 3 other locations open,

dude give it a rest. It takes 15 minutes to notch up a 2x4, brace it temporarily, and install the sump. The stands are built sturdy enough to handle it for a few minutes. Do I need to do a write up? I'll be removing the sump from my 120 shortly, and guess what? I have to remove the brace, again. Yes, again.

[TechGuy]

This is one that you need to look at. I wish I could do this with mine

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg46/lunatik_69/DSCN0322.jpg

Yes that is nice. The result of careful planning...

[harleyrider]

dude give it a rest. It takes 15 minutes to notch up a 2x4, brace it temporarily, and install the sump. The stands are built sturdy enough to handle it for a few minutes. Do I need to do a write up? I'll be removing the sump from my 120 shortly, and guess what? I have to remove the brace, again. Yes, again.

[slandis3]

OK lets not turn this into a nasty argument. Keep the post on topic and positive please.

[harleyrider]

Thank you!

[verper]

Everything OVER 4' had center braces.  Using my woodworker eyes I can state that they were made using the cheapest materials and fasteners available. 1x4 PINE (not even a hardwood) and staples for most fasteners.      Your right to a point but it is 4' AND OVER on all that aquarium adventures sell do to support....removal or tampering with center brace voids your waranty,,yes they are still open and there are 3 other locations open,

No, I said it right the first time.  I visited the store many times looking at how strong I needed to make my stand.  I don't think I can be any clearer - Anything OVER 4' had a center brace.  4' and under had all of the variables I listed.  Please take a drive over and see with your own eyes.   I did.

[harleyrider]

So you probly Know Kelsey then, the store manager, shes a really nice lady, with a lot of knowledge

[jd]

Throwing my hat back into the game....

IMHO, Your best/saftest bet is to drain most of the water from the tank, save it in some tubs, and put the tank on those carpet sliders you can get almost any ware. That way, you ever have to move the tank again you just slide it out of the way. I've heard those work really way. Install your sump thru the back, allowing you to get the largest sump you can and you are done!

[Grunk08]

This is how you get 30 gal. of sump/refugium under a 48" stand.

[harleyrider]

This is how you get 30 gal. of sump/refugium under a 48" stand.

Gotta love it!

[jungliztkruger]

above is an example if blown76mavs acrylic work

[jungliztkruger]

here is an old pic of the one i have from him

you would think i have stock in him lol

[harleyrider]

I hope reefchik sees this might help her

[~reefchik~]

This is how you get 30 gal. of sump/refugium under a 48" stand.

Beautiful stand.  Too bad mine isn't anything like it.  Mine's just a cheap pine AGA stand.  It's clear that blown76mav does nice work!
Is that two separate tanks under there, connected?

[jungliztkruger]

yes...   anything can be done in this hobby
some things require a little more dedication than others

[~reefchik~]

Throwing my hat back into the game....

IMHO, Your best/saftest bet is to drain most of the water from the tank, save it in some tubs, and put the tank on those carpet sliders you can get almost any ware. That way, you ever have to move the tank again you just slide it out of the way. I've heard those work really way. Install your sump thru the back, allowing you to get the largest sump you can and you are done!

I actually like this idea.  Those Moving Men discs are great.  Although I wonder if they wouldn't crack under the weight of a tank.  Anyone ever try that?  We've used them on regular furniture including a fully loaded oak entertainment center with TV, VCR, and big stereo system, but that's still not nearly as heavy.  

So now I'll fess up.  I bought a sump this evening after my earlier posts.  It's a big Reef Master with refugium in the middle.  I think it's the 200.

As I told Techguy40 earlier, I'm really not up to building anything right now.  I haven't mentioned it yet, but I'm recovering from cancer treatments and I don't have the strength or stamina I used to for big projects.  DH is starting up a home repair business and he's gone longer hours than when he had his old job at the Moraine GM plant.  So he's not much help either.  

Plus I'm running a full time business, and I had to get back to work and stop researching all this stuff.  I've spent HOURS this week learning about sumps, skimmers, refugia, etc.  And you know you can't just read those threads.  You have to stop and gawk along the way at people's tank photos and read all the latest posts.....  

Now, just so this thread doesn't croak, we can keep on talking about how to set this thing up the right way!  I don't suppose I'll want bio-balls.  Would you just fill that end section with LR rubble?  I can take a photo and post it tomorrow so you see what I mean.

[harleyrider]

kool, did you get the sea storm skimmer with it?

[~reefchik~]

No.  I didn't know if it was a good skimmer.  Of course I've been brainwashed over at RC to thinking that only a MSX, Octopus or Deltec skimmer is worth buying  

[harleyrider]

thats whats funny about anything you do, you can ask 20 people about something and all 20 will come up with something different,

[~reefchik~]

Um...that's for sure. 

[harleyrider]

like i said before take your time, use a little commom sence, take it all in a make a decision, you wont go wrong, and if you do, dont tell nobody

[pontiac2002gtp]

I would do like you suggested and put live rock rubble in place of the bioballs.  The size of the sump is probly going to help make your skimmer choice for you get what fits and leaves room for the refuge.  How big is the area you plan to put the skimmer?
I think this is a link to the sump
http://www.sealife-systems.com/reefmaster.html

[~reefchik~]

Yep, Pontiac, that's what I got - the big one, 300.  Thanks for the link to their site.  I just measured and the skimmer area is 12 x 15.  Plenty big.

harleyrider:    

[harleyrider]

lol Keep it in the GM family

[TechGuy]

Replacing the bio balls with live rock is an option. But Bio Balls have about 20X the surface area for anaerobic bacteria to thrive, but the important thing is the anaerobic bacteria has to be able to strip the oxygen from the nitrogen. It is true that Bio Balls will build nitrates if submerged in water and not allowed to oxygenate. But saying that, live rubble will do the same thing. Even if you have live rock rubble, or bio balls, it still has to be able to oxygenate. So with the sump that you have, if that is what it is, you will be building nitrates whether or not you have live rock rubble or bio balls. By looking at the sump thats in the thread, it looks like a nitrate builder to me.

[TechGuy]

Drip points and non exposure to light, that is very important!

[harleyrider]

No.  I didn't know if it was a good skimmer.  Of course I've been brainwashed over at RC to thinking that only a MSX, Octopus or Deltec skimmer is worth buying  

i like the msx, and i know where there is one heck of a deal on one,

[~reefchik~]

Replacing the bio balls with live rock is an option. But Bio Balls have about 20X the surface area for anaerobic bacteria to thrive, but the important thing is the anaerobic bacteria has to be able to strip the oxygen from the nitrogen. It is true that Bio Balls will build nitrates if submerged in water and not allowed to oxygenate. But saying that, live rubble will do the same thing. Even if you have live rock rubble, or bio balls, it still has to be able to oxygenate. So with the sump that you have, if that is what it is, you will be building nitrates whether or not you have live rock rubble or bio balls. By looking at the sump thats in the thread, it looks like a nitrate builder to me.

Drip points and non exposure to light, that is very important!

I've heard that said about wet/dry trickle filters, but not about sumps.  Can you expound?  What did you mean about drip points and non-exposure to light?  Do you mean that as long as the bio-balls or rubble can be partially or periodically exposed to air, they will not become nitrate-sinks?

[verper]

Its the other way around with bioballs.  Like bio-wheels, they become nitrate traps when partially exposed to air and why you want to stay away from a wet/dry system.  If they are completely submerged in water all of the time they would act more like dry rock.  Eventually they would become a type of "live rock" with beneficial bacteria growing on them.
 
http://www.vafishfreek.com/wetdrynsump.html

[~reefchik~]

i like the msx, and i know where there is one heck of a deal on one,

  And I got a PM from somebody!

[~reefchik~]

Its the other way around with bioballs.  Like bio-wheels, they become nitrate traps when partially exposed to air and why you want to stay away from a wet/dry system.  If they are completely submerged in water all of the time they would act more like dry rock.  Eventually they would become a type of "live rock" with beneficial bacteria growing on them.
 
http://www.vafishfreek.com/wetdrynsump.html

Ok, that's what I thought.  Since I haven't seen this thing in action yet (well, I did see a smaller version they are using at the store) I didn't pay close enough attention to the bio-ball end.  I wonder if they remain submerged in this design.  I'm thinking they might.  

Oh, and I talked to Aqueon on the phone today.  They confirmed that the center partition can be removed briefly on the pine stand to place the sump even with a filled tank up top. 

[Blown76mav]

Hey, Hey,

Back from Florida and seen this thread.   

I've done some acrylic work and may be able to help.  How soon, how big etc.......  Anything is possible.

If your interested you can shoot me a PM and I'll get you my phone number and we can talk.

Lonnie

[jeremyt]

Hey, Hey,

Back from Florida and seen this thread.  

I've done some acrylic work and may be able to help.  How soon, how big etc.......  Anything is possible.

If your interested you can shoot me a PM and I'll get you my phone number and we can talk.

Lonnie

think she bought one but she probably should have waited (looks like you do nice work)  

[Blown76mav]

Oh well her money not mine. 

[Reefd Up]

I would not advise moving pads as permanent placement under a tank stand in most cases.  They can cause pressure points if not placed properly.  Shims can do the same thing. 

I think I'm now hosting October if anyone is interested in seeing my 30g sump (designed by me and Will...taught acrylic by Lonnie) under our 48" 150g tank.  The sump area also houses a 5g top-off bucket.  Joel also gave a very informative sump discussion at the meeting he hosted a while back.

[Grunk08]

Beautiful stand.  Too bad mine isn't anything like it.  Mine's just a cheap pine AGA stand.  It's clear that blown76mav does nice work!
Is that two separate tanks under there, connected?

Yea, two tanks. Works great. No problems yet. Hope I didnt just jinx myself.

[Blown76mav]

You shouldn't have any trouble Tony, I was standing on mine the other day without thinking.   It seemed to hold ok.

[TechGuy]

Yea, two tanks. Works great. No problems yet. Hope I didnt just jinx myself.

Tony,

I seen your setup in person. Beautiful. Very solid. I think you said it was a custom built stand? Send me a PM! I want to know who built it.

[~reefchik~]

think she bought one but she probably should have waited (looks like you do nice work)  

Yes, I did - bought a Reef Master.  But you sure come highly recommended, blown76mav!  And didn't I see a seahorse tank build on the DIY section that you did?  That was very cool. 

What can I say, I had the extra $$ and was getting befuddled with all the various ideas and advice.  Hope you had a nice trip to Fla.  If you don't mind my asking, what part?  I'm from Venice.

[Grunk08]

J.D Poling... Elite Custom Cabinets. 100% quality. Solid Maple. Charges material X 2.

[~reefchik~]

Well, DH popped off the center piece before I got back from my daughter's baby shower, and had the stand empty waiting for me this afternoon.

I'd hoped to have that sump/refugium up and going by now, but guess what.  Wrong size overflow sent.   Now it won't be til next weekend. 

[jungliztkruger]

yikes

[TechGuy]

Bummer, I was hoping to see it setup! What return pump did you get? Did you get an aqua lifter for the overflow?

[~reefchik~]

Bummer, I was hoping to see it setup! What return pump did you get? Did you get an aqua lifter for the overflow?

The return pump is a CA-4000 and I don't know what an aqua lifter is, but I don't think the Eshopps has it. 

[~reefchik~]

Oh brother    No overflow this past Friday either.  Now they can't get one.
I ordered one from Drs. Foster & Smith which should get here today or tomorrow. 

Someone asked me to post my tank and light photos here (I posted them in my welcome thread, probably not the best place)
so here they are again:

  I need to remember to close the drapes on the window next to the tank.  I always get reflections.


Yes, I see it's time to wipe more salt creep off.  I just did that a week ago.  Still getting used to the timing of maintenance on this tank.
Those are (IIRC) 96w 10,000K daylight PCs and 5100K actinics.  I will probably get replacements for them soon as I'm sure they are older than a year by now. 





And yes, I did order some legs for the lights!   

[Aquatic Specialists]

Let me know when you are ready for some lights. I can currently get a great deal on lighting, not sure for how much longer though.

All T-5 bulbs mix and match (available in 6700k, 15k, 20k, and 420nm)
SPS T-5 (normal output)  14w/24" $12.00
                                   21w/36" $16.00
                                   28w/48" $17.50
SPS T-5 (high output)     24w/24" $17.00
                                  39w/36"  $18.25
                                  54w/48"  $18.50

Metal Halides  Mogul/Double Ended HQI available (10k, 14k, or 20k) mix and match
SPS Metal Halide Bulb 175w(mogul) or 150w (HQI) $59.00
                                                   250w (HQI) $62.00
                                                   400w (HQI) $64.00

SPS Power Compact (available in: 6700k, 10k, 6700k/10k, Actinic 03, 10k/Actinic 03, or 420nm/460nm)
      available in square or straight pin
                                   65w/ $19.00
                                   96w/ $28.00

If you are interested in this let me know by Weds. at 6:00pm they would be here Friday.
Thanks,
Justin

[rayviv]

The return pump is a CA-4000 and I don't know what an aqua lifter is, but I don't think the Eshopps has it. 

I have a ca3000 for my skimmer and a ca4000 as a return and I'm not pleased w/either of them. I have used the 4000 about 7mos and the flow slowed down so I put the 3000 in till I can get a different/better pump.
the CA pumps dont seem to hold up very long.

[~reefchik~]

Justin, any chance you could have them drop shipped to me?  The drive through the construction in Dayton sux big-time right now.
(I'm ready to get the lights, just hoping maybe I don't have to drive that way again so soon). 

SPS Power Compact (available in: 6700k, 10k, 6700k/10k, Actinic 03, 10k/Actinic 03, or 420nm/460nm)
      available in square or straight pin
                                   65w/ $19.00
                                   96w/ $28.00

I'd want to replace what's there, I guess.  That's 2 of the 96w 10K/Actinic 03, right?.  Any reason I wouldn't want to use these? 

[~reefchik~]

I have a ca3000 for my skimmer and a ca4000 as a return and I'm not pleased w/either of them. I have used the 4000 about 7mos and the flow slowed down so I put the 3000 in till I can get a different/better pump.
the CA pumps dont seem to hold up very long.

Hmmmm.  Not good news.  Well, I have an old Little Giant pond pump I could clean up and use, I suppose, if the CA4000 turns out to be a dog.  Downside, it might be too much pump.  And it's a mag-drive, I think meaning it will generate a fair amount of heat, right?

[TechGuy]

Hmmmm.  Not good news.  Well, I have an old Little Giant pond pump I could clean up and use, I suppose, if the CA4000 turns out to be a dog.  Downside, it might be too much pump.  And it's a mag-drive, I think meaning it will generate a fair amount of heat, right?

Whats it rated for flow wise? You never want to pump more in, than your overflows can remove. And you did buy two right?

[rayviv]

ask Justin, [AC. SP.] he knows them very well. I've heard they do. But I've heard they are good and dependable, also.

[~reefchik~]

Whats it rated for flow wise? You never want to pump more in, than your overflows can remove. And you did buy two right?

  I got a PF-1000 double overflow:   http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=18358  900 gph max. 

About the pond pump, I'm not sure what it's rated.  I tried to find it online.  They rate pond pumps in GPH depending on how much head you have to push up.  So assuming that it needs to push the water back up about 3 ft. +/-, that would put it at 140 gph. 

It also takes 1/2 inch tubing.  http://www.lilypons.com/prodinfo.asp?number=50214  As I say, it's old, and apparently my model (PE-1WG) has been replaced by this one. 

Ok, so here's a question. The overflow just arrived and I'm looking at these parts.  The assembly instructions are vague.  The bulkhead has a rubber gasket and a nut screwed onto it.  The gasket would always go on the inside of the box, right?  Do I need teflon tape on the bulkhead threads?  It appears that the bulkhead fitting would go through the gasket and the nut would hold it onto the bottom of the overflow. 

Keep in mind I have never touched one of these things in my life so I'm headed into unfamiliar territory!  Try not to laugh too hard.... 

[jd]

You may want to find a stronger pump. Running at 140gph on a 900gph overflow will likely cause bubbles to build up and slow or even stop flow.

The gaskets always goes on the wet side with the nut on the dry side. Shouldn't need teflon tape, but be careful not to over tighten the nut.

[TechGuy]

You may want to find a stronger pump. Running at 140gph on a 900gph overflow will likely cause bubbles to build up and slow or even stop flow.

The gaskets always goes on the wet side with the nut on the dry side. Shouldn't need teflon tape, but be careful not to over tighten the nut.

Oh yeah! I went from a ViaAqua pump, moving about 100GPH, to a Mag 9.5 moving about 700.

With the old pump, air qould get trapped in the u-tube, and I would have to siphon it out. Now I don't have a single bubble. I still think the "weir" or CPR overflows are the best, no U-Tubes.

[Aquatic Specialists]

Yes, i agree with the pump situation, a stronger pump is needed. You also have to take a foot of head pressure off for every 90 degree fitting and 6" for every 45 degree fitting. this quickly cuts down on your head pressure. Teflon tape should not be necessary, but I like to be safe than sorry. And like jd said do not over tighten that nut it will crack the acrylic. You may want to use plastic gator clamps for any adaptions...to be on the safe side.

[harleyrider]

you need a pump that will pump your 90 gallons at least 4-5 times an hour, me personally i wouldnt use anything under a pump rated at 500 gallons an hour..ive got a mag 5 rated at 500 on my 55 gallon and its in my oppinion not big enough in fact moving up to mag 7

[rayviv]

Keep in mind I have never touched one of these things in my life so I'm headed into unfamiliar territory!  Try not to laugh too hard.... 
[/quote]
If they laugh @ you then they must laugh @ me harder

[~reefchik~]

I see I've confused the issue.

I intend to start out using the new CA 4000 pump (rated 1300 gph) that came with the Reef Master sump/refugium.  Based on rayviv's comment that he wasn't real pleased with his, I was just throwing out a "what if" suggestion for the pond pump.

http://www.petmeister.com/item2598.htm


If it can't keep up with the overflow then I will have to consider something else. 

Thanks for the confirmation on the teflon tape and the proper assembly of the overflow. 

[~reefchik~]

I removed most of the bioballs from the chamber (intake chamber?) on the left.  Would I be better off putting LR rubble in there?  Or are just a few bioballs ok?  Any other suggestions?

The center is a refugium.  I have the mud and sand from the old tank that are going in there as well as about 4-5 smaller pcs. of rock from the display that have no corals (just macroalgaes) on them, and a couple small clumps of cheato.  Then there's the sponge section and the open sump area on the right for the skimmer.  Which I don't have yet. 


What are those white clamp looking things for?  Are those like the alligator clamps Justin is talking about?  Seems like they are to secure the grey hosing on the intake tubes and on the overflow manifolds, is that right?  And the two gaskets - do you suppose they are extras or maybe should have been part of the overflow prefilter that I didn't get with this system (because it was too lg.)   

I can't believe they don't give better instructions with this equipment.  I did find a PDF for the Reefmaster on their site, but it doesn't address these parts.  Like we're born knowing what to do with them 

[Aquatic Specialists]

Yes those are the alligator clips I was refering to, and yes they are to secure the grey hose. The two gaskets should go where the overflow dumps into the sump right after the 90s so you can tighten them down with a snug fit onto the acrylic top. As far as drop shipping goes these bulbs come from my fish supplier, I pick them up at the airport with my fish. I am currently working on being able to drop ship items via my website, it is still in the works right now though. But I can get them if you need them, just let me know.

[~reefchik~]

Thanks, Justin.  Now I have to figure out whether I need straight pin or square pin bulbs. 

I'm trying to pre-assemble the overflow and parts now, and realized that the grey hose ends are exactly the diameter of the fittings on the bottom of the overflow.  So apparently a run to Lowes is now in order for more PVC.   I guess you just have to jam the ends of those grey hoses onto the 90* white fittings?  Not easy....

Actually none of this is *easy*.  I guess it'll be worth it when it's all done.  Sure is a learning experience.

[~reefchik~]

<<sigh>> Another question.

Considering one main reason for running a refugium will be to grow pods, wouldn't that sponge in the next section over filter most of them out before they get to the sump?  And when I get a skimmer, wouldn't the skimmer tear them up rather than allow them to ever end up back in the display tank?  For that matter, wouldn't the impeller in the return pump tear them up too? 

[Aquatic Specialists]

Yeah if you wet the inside of the hose it will help you out tremendously. I normally do not use the corrugated tubing that comes with it. I normally switch everything over to black vinyl hose and use barb fittings. Much easier to work with.

[Aquatic Specialists]

Yes about the pods, but the baby pods are so small they will make it through the guantlet and end up in your display tank. You should seed both the display and the fuge with pods.

[jd]

<<sigh>> Another question.

Considering one main reason for running a refugium will be to grow pods, wouldn't that sponge in the next section over filter most of them out before they get to the sump?  And when I get a skimmer, wouldn't the skimmer tear them up rather than allow them to ever end up back in the display tank?  For that matter, wouldn't the impeller in the return pump tear them up too? 

That's a topic of much debate. I would, and I think other would agree, ditch the sponge. Unless it is cleaned regularly it may do more harm then good. About the pods. Some people but their fuge above their tanks to allow them to drain via gravity. Your skimmer may remove some, but for the most part they arn't free swimming. One of the guys at coral ranch (I forgot him name, sorry coral ranch guy) was just telling me how some baby cardinal fish went through his LARGE return pump and came out like nothing happened.

[~reefchik~]

Thanks again, Justin. You sell pods right? 

Josh, as far as ditching the sponge that sort of makes sense.  I can put my thermometer in that section I guess, if nothing else.  Under the egg crate.  I would probably toss in carbon bags from time to time as well.

[Aquatic Specialists]

Yes I do sell pods. I would utilize your canister filter for any chemical media so you are assured that water passes trough it and not around it. Carbon bags just tossed in the sump will not be very effective. Just a thought.

[~reefchik~]

Ok.  I'm not sure the Fluval will fit under there with the sump.  I wonder if it would be happy just standing in the sump section, it's pretty big.  Then again it might float 

[TechGuy]

Ditch the sponge!

Have you ever purchased pods? They are tiny, they make it past everything, and into the display. Your skimmer will remove the pods, but the positives of the skimmer, far outweigh a small loss in pods.

That tubing = crap. Get rid of it. I use Vinyl tubing, its cheap, and easy. As stated, wet the inside with tank water.

[harleyrider]

I wouldnt leave the sponge in,

[rayviv]

I see I've confused the issue.

I intend to start out using the new CA 4000 pump (rated 1300 gph) that came with the Reef Master sump/refugium.  based on rayviv's comment that he wasn't real pleased with his, I was just throwing out a "what if" suggestion for the pond pump.

http://www.petmeister.com/item2598.htm


If it can't keep up with the overflow then I will have to consider something else. 

Thanks for the confirmation on the teflon tape and the proper assembly of the overflow. 

I'm sure the CA4000 will be fine for you for a while. If you have it-use it. But if you can afford to get a new one I would recommend the Ehiem 1262. After much research that is the best recommended. Some people have them in use for 14 yrs and still going strong. They tied for quite running w/the Quite Ones pumps.

[~reefchik~]

It's in.   

Everything is working as it should.  I'll get some photos posted later.

I just want to thank everyone who has been so helpful with this project.     As you know, I was a bundle of nerves about the whole thing, but with all the good advice I got, it really did go off without a hitch.  The pump and overflow are running wide open and seem to be well matched. 

That pump return really moves the tank water around!  I was really surprised to see how much.  Don't have to worry about stagnant areas anymore. 

Now I can relax and wait for my third grandchild.  We've been on standby since last evening about 7pm, my daughter thought she might be in labor.  We're just waiting for it to get serious enough to go to the hospital. 

[~reefchik~]

So no baby yet 

Here are photos of the sump and eshopps overflow:

[lazylivin]

Nice, good job

[TechGuy]

You just gotta keep an eye on evaporation on the return pump side. Water looks a little low!

But it looks good!

[~reefchik~]

Thanks!  I'm just glad it's done 

As for evaporation, yes, I'm finding that out.  I put more water in this evening (pics this morning).  I think that pump is warming the water up.  The heater hasn't come on at all today that I could see, not even when I dumped some fresh water top off into the sump part. 

On the negative side, putting the old LS from my 20 gallon tank spiked some nitrates.  I found out how delicate a Blood Red cleaner shrimp is     I did a small water change this afternoon, and I'll retest in the morning. 

[Blown76mav]

I'd ditch the bio balls (nitrate factory), and the hose going to the tank could be shorter, its just adding head pressure to the pump making it work harder than it has to and will cause it to wear out faster.  Other than that it looks good.  How many power heads do you have?  Reason for asking Mark Melev (melevsreef.com) said in a conference that you shouldn't use the return pump as a source of major water flow, it should be throttled back which will reduce the energy used and promote longer life.  Use powerheads for water movement.  Just a thought.

[~reefchik~]

Yep, I'm going to pull the rest of the bioballs out.  Now that they are floating and I can reach them!

Ok, I'll cut some of that tubing off the return side.  There is a half-loop of extra tubing that can come off.   I put a ball valve on the return too, just in case I needed to throttle it back some. 

I've got lots of powerheads.  Right now there's a Koralia in there and one small PH in the center.  With the 3 of them I get lots of water movement, none of it laminar and my corals all seem very happy with it.  But the return flow does push sand out of the corner, and I haven't been able to adjust it so that it doesn't blow sand somewhere.  So now I'm glad I put that ball valve on there. 

Now I have to ask:  to me, adding back pressure against the pump seems counter-intuitive - and it would burn the pump out faster.  Why would that not be correct?

I guess everyone already knew that the overflow was going to sound like Niagara Falls in our TV/Family room, right? 

[jd]

Steph, using just just one valve to control your pump will wear it out faster. The better solution is to something like this


  |
  |
  |==(V)===
  |
  |
[Pump]

Where the | is the pipe the runs to your tank the |= is a tee and the (v) is a ball valve. The end of the === goes into the first chamber of your sump. This allows you to spilt the return without adding any stress to the pump.

[Blown76mav]

Now I have to ask:  to me, adding back pressure against the pump seems counter-intuitive - and it would burn the pump out faster.  Why would that not be correct?

On mine in the directions it even says I can add a slowdown valve, which will not only reduce flow but save some energy.  So far I've done it on all my pumps and haven't burned one up yet.  I was just getting at you don't want to use the return pump for your primary water flow.  Also NEVER restrict the return side of a tank, this is a good way to cause floods.  All it takes is a snail, slug algae build up etc. to plug the ball valve and wala instant flood.

[jd]

Lonnie, I'm confused... You said that you add ball valves on all your pumps, but you should never add a ball valve on your return... Did I miss something or is this a case of do as I say, not as I do? 

[slandis3]

He means the intake side of the pump or the overflow box. i have seen setups where people have put ballvlaves on there drain pipe. Not a good idea.

[jd]

D'oh. I think it's too early for me

[Blown76mav]

Lonnie, I'm confused... You said that you add ball valves on all your pumps, but you should never add a ball valve on your return... Did I miss something or is this a case of do as I say, not as I do? 

I have a ball valve on the output side of my pump, and ball valves leading to the feed side of the overflows.   they say you are not suppose to put ball valves on the return side of the system especially if you only have one return line.  Return=line going to sump, feed = line going to tank.  Hope this clears that up.

[rayviv]

I can be confusing, cant it?
Actually the directions on the tank I have here (waiting to be returned for new StarFire) calls the line coming from 'tank to sump' the drain line and the supply 'line going to tank' is called return line.

[lazylivin]

Return=line going to sump, feed = line going to tank.  Hope this clears that up.

I always thought it was the other way around. Feed the sump and return to tank

[rayviv]

I hear ya. When I started this setup I found it hard to explain which line I was talking about. The paper; which I just went and rechecked, also refers to the line going from 'tank to sump' the overflow line.

[harleyrider]

Elementary..... is your pump in your sump or in you display? your pump sends the water last time i looked , if its in your sump its sending the water to your display and the display is returning the water to the sump throught your overflow.... now on the other hand if youve got your pump in your display, and if you do you shoudnt be in this hobby, it would be supplying your sump!!!!!

[~reefchik~]

Ah...we seem to have a breakdown in communications here. 

I always thought "return" meant returning filtered (or skimmed or post-fuge sump water) to the tank.
I think of intake as the side coming down from the overflow FROM the tank.

I guess I'm not the only one who has these confused. 

But just to even the score and give some of you heartburn, don't forget - I have ball valves on both the return and intake sides! 

jd:  I think I understand what you're saying.  You have some water coming out the side of the T back to the sump area, controlled by the valve, thereby reducing total flow to the tank from the pump? 

[jd]

I've always call the line running from the pump to the tank the return and the overflow to the sump the intake.

Reefchik: Right, It allows you to throttle back the return pump without stressing it. An added benefit is you can use the tee'd line to run GFO/Carbon reactors without using another pump.

[TechGuy]

I've always call the line running from the pump to the tank the return and the overflow to the sump the intake.

Reefchik: Right, It allows you to throttle back the return pump without stressing it. An added benefit is you can use the tee'd line to run GFO/Carbon reactors without using another pump.

NO ball valves on the overflows!!! Ever! BAD! hehe.

JD: Yes you can run GFO or carbon. But remember, VERY low flow thru the GFO. Or you will have a nice orange powder.

[jd]

Todd: Of course, you'd have to tee it again for that. But it is a handy trick to save a pump.