Students science project

[bkvreef]

I have a student who is planning on doing a science project where she will be trying to mimic the effect that global warming has on corals.
I am a math teacher so I don't know the specifics.
She said that she will be starting up a tank and then slowly raising the temperatures over a period of time and observing the effect that the heat has on the tank.
She also said that there is a chemical/powder (I'm not sure which) that has been created that supposedly can help the fading corals return to health.

I know this is very vague but I thought I would pass it along.

She said that her Chemistry teacher had suggested she try 3 different types of coral (I'm not sure what the groupings where).
So I may be checking to see if anyone has any coral she could use (I'm referring to the less expensive specimens of course).

If any of you have any experience with this or input let me know and I'll pass it along.

[atreis]

She would first need to have two stable systems stocked with the same number and types of corals, live rock, and other plants and animals - one for the experiment and one for the control.  You'd want the tanks to have the same brand, model, and age of equipment and to receive the same maintenance procedures.  (Seems rather difficult to me, actually, but you could use nano tanks.)

Anyway...  The biggest effect from global warming on the oceans isn't thought to be temp increase in coral reefs, except for some reefs that are already marginal in terms of average high-end temps.  The reefs vary a fair bit in temperature naturally based on where you are on the reef, lagoon vs. reef face, for instance, and whether the tide is high or low.  This is why there's a fairly broad range that we can reasonably pick from for our tanks.  Global warming is expected to affect the oceans by only a degree or two (a huge amount of overall energy globally) so one could reasonably expect them to shift some (die back) at the margins, but to be basically okay.

The biggest affect from global warming is currently thought to be increased absorption of CO2 from the atmosphere causing a decrease in ph.  That could also be experimented with almost as easily as temp, and in much the same way as happens naturally - bubble CO2 through the water to get the desired change in ph.

[bkvreef]

My impression (remember I'm not her science teacher so I don't know exact specifics) is that she will raise the temperature of her tank several (I'm not sure if that means 3 or 5) degrees Celsius.
I am under the impression that she will not be doing a test system and a stable system and compare the results.

Bstare01:  Thanks, I do have some also, but I am going through and trying to make sure she has the correct equipment first.

[Joel]

This project has many potential scenarios that could compromise the results. Simply putting 3 corals in a tank and raising the temp to see what happens is not an accurate way to determine the effect of warming water.

I agree that at least two separate aquariums would be needed, one for control and one for the test.  Every aspect of these aquariums would need to be identical, Volume of water, filtration, light type and duration, age, water parameters and inhabitants, etc. This way a comparison between constant temp and rising temp could be done. If the person is inexperienced, this could be a challenge.

Another consideration would be the coral types, they all 3 would need to have very similar needs. YOu could not put an Acropora sp. , a gorgonia and a zoanthiad in the same tank and expect them all 3 to do well. Their needs are so dissimilar that regardless of stable or rising water temps, one or two of them would do poorly. (or all 3 of them)

If a Xenia specie or clones were used and it wilted or died it would not necessarily mean that a raising temp was the cause. It has been documented in captivity and in the wild that sustained slight increases in temperature often causes most or all of the colony to die off. People see this in their aquarium all the time - all the xenia suddenly dies but everything else is fine. Often it was a temp rise that caused it.

A person would really need to do this with a grouping of corals from the same type of environment that have virtually identical needs. Provide them with these needs,  Let them establish themselves and get them to where they are thriving and growing. This would take weeks if not months. Then start to raise the temp to see what happens. Newly introduced stressed out corals in a newer, unstable aquarium will not accurately show what the affects are. It's not a realistic scenario. A person doing this experiment will likely kill all the corals doing it and blame it on the warming of the water when it is highly probable that other influences are what led to the corals death. 

Maybe asking the Student and the science teacher to join Ohio Reef to bounce ideas off each other could help. That could help make it at least a more fair experiment and get your student to many options on test corals for cheap (or free!) I am interested in learning about this chemical / powder that helps coral fading. If there was such a legitimate thing, the reef tank community would like knowing about it - I believe that there may be a product(s) with such a claim, like black powder for example. Some of them may help with pigmentation but many are just snake oil & many other factors go into whether or not these type of "foods" work.

I'm pretty interested in this project. I could be pretty cool and even inspire a new reef hobbyist. See if you can send them our way.

Joel

[atreis]

Aside from the problem of creating and maintaining otherwise identical and stable systems (nicely described by Joel above), creating a true scientific experiment is not terribly difficult.

In this scenario, three students plus the teacher are needed.  These people will be called P1, P2, P3, and T1.  T1 is considered a trusted neutral third party (the teacher).

P1 - Generally the person that forms and states the hypothesis.  This person would also develop the experimental protocol.  This person would be responsible for designing the experimental setup, selecting the equipment, livestock, and so forth.  All of this would be documented.  This person is absolutely forbidden from ever touching the tanks, and likewise also forbidden from knowing which of the tanks is the experiment and which is the control.  (The hypothesis statement is biased by nature, for example, "a rise in temperature of 3-4 degrees C will cause harmful affects to a variety of Acropora corals," which is why this person can't know which tank is which.)  As the experiment progresses this person is responsible for making and recording detailed observations of what's happening with the animals inside the tanks.

P2 - "Lab technician" assigns and makes a written note of which tank is the experiment and which is the control.  This recorded record is given, before the experiment starts, to T1 for safe keeping.  P2 is responsible for preparing the maintenance materials, foods, etc. used in maintaining the two tanks.  These materials would be required to be indistinguishable for the two tanks (for instance, if testing CO2 absorption, both tanks would have a CO2 canister filled with a gas that is bubbled through the water - for one of them this might actually be nitrogen while the other is CO2).  P1 and P3 are not permitted to be present while P2 is working as that might expose P1 and P3 to knowledge of which tank is the control and which is the experiment.  Because this person knows which tank is which, this person is not permitted to make observations, perform tank maintenance, or otherwise touch the tanks.

P3 - "Lab technician" performs tank maintenance using the materials specifically prepared for the individual tanks by P2.  This person is not permitted to know which tank is which in order to prevent bias in the maintenance routine and must perform the maintenance while P1 and P2 are not present.

T1 - "Trusted third party" keeps all written records and insures that the experimental protocol is followed by P1, P2, and P3.  This person also knows which tank is which, and so is not permitted to make observations, do maintenance, or otherwise touch the tanks.

This is a double-blind setup, as the person making observations doesn't know which tank is which and isn't permitted to affect the maintenance, and likewise the person doing tank maintenance (and thus administering whatever is being experimented with) also doesn't know which tank is which.

There's still a lot that can go wrong - for instance, a janitor might accidentally spill something into one of the tanks and not mention it to anyone.  Things like that can be really hard to account for, but should come out in the next step.


This would be quite newsworthy for a high school student (top ranking undergrads sometimes get this far), but the next step would be to let the larger community know about the experiment and the results.  To do so the hypothesis, description of the protocol, observations and other supporting data, and any Conclusions would be written up in a paper and submitted for publication.  Here's where the test of the quality of the experimental protocol itself comes in - in order to be rigorously scientific, the paper would have to be published in a peer-reviewed journal whose focus is the field being studied.  The reviewers are responsible for looking for flaws in the protocol, the implementation of the protocol (as expressed in the data gathered), or leaps to judgment without supporting data within the Conclusion.  The field of the journal has to be related to that of the paper, otherwise the peer reviewers are unlikely to be qualified to properly review the paper (reputable journals don't allow such issues to arise in the first place).  Let's assume it passes through review with only minor revisions (getting published without minor revisions is rare) and accepted for publication (because of print cycles, layout, formatting of images and data, actual publication in a physical journal can take months.)  Despite being accepted for publication, it's still not taken as a valid hypothesis.  It's only an "interesting" hypothesis.  The next step would be for another set of experimenters to duplicate the experiment using the same experimental setup and protocol described in the first paper and to publish their results in a similar peer-reviewed journal.  Assuming the second experiment's results match, only at that point is the experiment considered to be valid-until-proven-otherwise.  If the second experiment's results don't match the first, then everyone involved examines both sets of documentation in detail and tries to figure out what went wrong, (which might result in another publication or two) followed by more experiments and so forth until the problem is better understood, the hypothesis revised to be more accurate and/or the results start to agree because of a documented change.

The news media routinely reports on experimental results as if they are valid after the first paper has been accepted for publication (or sometimes even before then)...  Not a good thing.

[bkvreef]

Excellent points by all.
I am trying not to overwhelm her by throwing thousands of bits of info at her.  But she is also very interested and she wanted to go the local pet store: I read this as "Jacks" and buy all of the stuff she needed.  I am planning on trying to sit down with her this next week and talk out ideas with her, SLOWLY.

[Aquatic Specialists]

This project has many potential scenarios that could compromise the results. Simply putting 3 corals in a tank and raising the temp to see what happens is not an accurate way to determine the effect of warming water.

I agree that at least two separate aquariums would be needed, one for control and one for the test.  Every aspect of these aquariums would need to be identical, Volume of water, filtration, light type and duration, age, water parameters and inhabitants, etc. This way a comparison between constant temp and rising temp could be done. If the person is inexperienced, this could be a challenge.

Another consideration would be the coral types, they all 3 would need to have very similar needs. YOu could not put an Acropora sp. , a gorgonia and a zoanthiad in the same tank and expect them all 3 to do well. Their needs are so dissimilar that regardless of stable or rising water temps, one or two of them would do poorly. (or all 3 of them)

If a Xenia specie or clones were used and it wilted or died it would not necessarily mean that a raising temp was the cause. It has been documented in captivity and in the wild that sustained slight increases in temperature often causes most or all of the colony to die off. People see this in their aquarium all the time - all the xenia suddenly dies but everything else is fine. Often it was a temp rise that caused it.

A person would really need to do this with a grouping of corals from the same type of environment that have virtually identical needs. Provide them with these needs,  Let them establish themselves and get them to where they are thriving and growing. This would take weeks if not months. Then start to raise the temp to see what happens. Newly introduced stressed out corals in a newer, unstable aquarium will not accurately show what the affects are. It's not a realistic scenario. A person doing this experiment will likely kill all the corals doing it and blame it on the warming of the water when it is highly probable that other influences are what led to the corals death. 

Maybe asking the Student and the science teacher to join Ohio Reef to bounce ideas off each other could help. That could help make it at least a more fair experiment and get your student to many options on test corals for cheap (or free!) I am interested in learning about this chemical / powder that helps coral fading. If there was such a legitimate thing, the reef tank community would like knowing about it - I believe that there may be a product(s) with such a claim, like black powder for example. Some of them may help with pigmentation but many are just snake oil & many other factors go into whether or not these type of "foods" work.

I'm pretty interested in this project. I could be pretty cool and even inspire a new reef hobbyist. See if you can send them our way.

Joel

Would have to agree 100%. Have you ever tried the "Black Powder"? I have but don't know for sure if actually contributed....Marc Wiess is a discus keeper for craps sakes..difficult yes, but a whole other ball game.

[Joel]

atreis:

Good points and info. I was not aware that there was a specific or required protocol but it makes sence and looks like a good system  - keeps it on the level (honest)

bkvreef;

If your student is interested, I have many of the items needed for this experiment available. Some used for cheap, some I could loan for the duration of the experiment at no charge.

Due to the time constraints on this project, some things that I can offer that I think would be helpful are;

live sand out of an established aquarium - Rock / rubble etc.

Clean "seasoned" water from an established aquarium - I think using all brand new water would be to harsh to the living organisms (micro fauna - bacterium - etc.)
and good quality ro / di water for make up and evaporation top off.

Depending on the type of filtration - I have cultured media or substrate for biological filtration available and macro algae.

I also have plans for how to turn an aquarium into an all in 1 tank with filtration that may be useful (like the quarantine system I demonstrated at the meeting I held)

If interested, I'll offer what I can in assistance.

Joel

[atreis]

atreis:

Good points and info. I was not aware that there was a specific or required protocol but it makes sence and looks like a good system  - keeps it on the level (honest)

There are many....  This one (and similar variations - if testing temp, for instance, P2 would probably have to make the temp adjustment but not perform any other tank maintenance) works if you're okay with seeing harm come to the experimental subjects (most of us are, since we wouldn't last long in this hobby otherwise!).  If you're not, if humans are involved as experimental subjects (drug trials, for instance), if there's a lot of money on the line and thus significant incentive to falsify information or cheat (drug trials, for instance), or if it's not practical to keep P3 from finding out which is the control and which the experiment, then things can get a lot more complicated.

[Joel]

Quote from Duane or Justin;

Would have to agree 100%. Have you ever tried the "Black Powder"? I have but don't know for sure if actually contributed....Marc Wiess is a discus keeper for craps sakes..difficult yes, but a whole other ball game.

I have used black powder and I do think its a decent product. But just like most products, it is only a part of the equation. I think that Marc Weise makes decent products and have been pleased with them when I have used them. The problem I see is many products are misleading in that they lead one to believe that by using their product the desired claimed results will automatically happen. Very little emphasis is put on how important other parameters are, in fact many suggest the use of additional other products offered by their company to enhance the out come. Typically this benefits the manufacture much more than the end user. Another problem is dosage of these types of products basing thier useage on the gallons of water instead of the actual consumption rate. All bad!!!

Unfortunately, beginners who don't know any better regularly get sucked into this type of situation and have bad results and get their money wasted. Although the beginner should have taken the responsibility to educate themselves a little better, it's also the fault of misleading sales tactics of the manufactures and the shops that push their products. Very rarely is something in a bottle or a pouch going to be some miracle cure to an aquarium problem. I brought this topic up here because I get the impression that the person performing this test on corals is new to the hobby (inexperienced) and may see this mentioned "powder" as some type of cure to struggling corals and use it to "cure" them instead of addressing the more likely underlying issues (such as h2o problems, lighting, etc.)

[Joel]

If there is a need for a test on the affect of raising temperatures on humans, I  volunteer myself to be shipped to the keys and will reports my findings..I think Captain Tonys has wyfi so I can post the results on line from there

[micki]

This will be fun to follow!  If you don't mind I'm going to make this a sticky and you can update us with the happenings. 

[bkvreef]

Joel:
Thanks for the info, especially the sand and possible loan of equipment.  Would you need the sand and rock back after her experiment?  I wouldn't want her to decide to keep her tank set up and then have to tear stuff out.  Replacing equipment is no big deal if she sets it up correctly.
By the way you are too busy supplying this stuff so I will volunteer in your place to go south for the winter.

micki: thank you for making it a sticky.  I will do my best with helping her and continuing to update everyone.  I will try to get more specifics come this week.  I only talked to her about this toward the end of school on Friday.

Again thanks for everyones' input and items

[atreis]

If there is a need for a test on the affect of raising temperatures on humans, I  volunteer myself to be shipped to the keys and will reports my findings..I think Captain Tonys has wyfi so I can post the results on line from there

LOL  No doubt this experiment should also involve the occasional dive.

[jungliztkruger]

i would like to see how this experiment develops and am certainly tagging along

[bkvreef]

UPDATE
I just spoke with student's dad.  He was concerned at the effectiveness of the experiment and if there was enough time.
Here's the details:
The student and science teacher decided that they will use mainly SPS.
They are going to use a 40 gallon tank (I'm not sure the dimensions)
I will be letting them borrow an old 4 x 65w p.c. light
I told the dad that I would see if anyone else has equipment that she can have or borrow for the experiment.
Here's what I think she'll need:

powerheads at least 2 (maybe three)
sand
rock
suggestions on filtration (I have a feeling that the idea of sump is more than what dad would like)
OOHHH and any SPS (Frags of course)
Anything else (I'm sure I'm missing lots of stuff)?

[Reefd Up]

I have a couple of pink birdsnest frags she can have.

[bkvreef]

I have a couple of pink birdsnest frags she can have.

Thanks I have a yellow birdsnest also that I'm going to give to her.

[coral ranch]

I'm sure we have some frags to donate.

[bkvreef]

Be careful.  There may all of a sudden become alot of kids science projects starting .

[bkvreef]

The main thing right now is getting her set up.
We've got the lights and tank.  We obviously need more.  I'm not asking for stuff just suggestions on what they would need.  Mainly the filtration.  I know this is a reach but would a hang on the back filter (like an emperor wheel) do ok?  We would definitely make sure that they had extra powerheads and plenty of sand and live rock to help the nitrogen cycle.

[Reefd Up]

As long as you have plenty of flow at the surface of the tank and live rock, she shouldn't need a sump.  A sump is nice...but not 100% necessary for a short term tank.  I would consider looking into some form of macroalgae to grow in the tank that won't overtake the corals. 

I would suggest using a HOB filter with carbon AND some phosphate remover in the filter.  A HOB will help oxygenate the water.

Is she planning to keep fish in the tank? 

[Joel]

I can donate some live sand, give me the foot print of the aquarium and the desired depth and I can round it up. I'll look to see what I have power head wise but I bet I can supply that as well.

and...you need a heater..... Can't raise the temp with out that. I have several spare laying around I can loan.

BUT.......

I don't think that SPS is a good idea though. These are not forgiving corals by comparison to most others. Put in the hands of a beginner and being compounded with a brand new tank, the odds are highly stacked against them surviving even with out the temperature increase test.

Think about it, who of us as a beginner (or even as we advanced) would have been able to set up a tank, put sps corals in it with in weeks of set up, with no real filter or protein skimmer and have been successful with it? Who of us a pet shop owners or employees would suggest that a beginner buy an SPS? Hopefully no one.

Now please understand that it is not my intention to be negative about this experiment, I thinks it's a pretty cool idea. But be realistic. Many advanced aquarist struggle to keep most SPS because of their demanding needs, the combination of a beginner with a new tank and no real means of filtration is going to fail and taint the test results. The corals will likely die because of husbandry needs not raising temperatures. This would surly be a disappointment to the student as well & not really prove anything about temp increase and probibly not get a good grade - all things we are trying to help prevent.

These circumstances in my opinion are better suited to mushrooms or zoanthiads / palys, etc. These corals are much more forgiving of what I bet will be a somewhat unstable environment. They should be able to survive and be able to be put through the temperature test.

Another question, How are water quality parameters going to be tested & maintained?

I'll put tome thought into filtration, perhaps the tank could be built similar to a RDSB filter with some cured live rock to function as a filtration system.

Anyone have an old Skilter or ramora laying around?

[jjw2121]

I have some mushrroms and Palys if they go that route.

[bkvreef]

I can donate some live sand, give me the foot print of the aquarium and the desired depth and I can round it up. I'll look to see what I have power head wise but I bet I can supply that as well.

and...you need a heater..... Can't raise the temp with out that. I have several spare laying around I can loan.

BUT.......

I don't think that SPS is a good idea though. These are not forgiving corals by comparison to most others. Put in the hands of a beginner and being compounded with a brand new tank, the odds are highly stacked against them surviving even with out the temperature increase test.

Think about it, who of us as a beginner (or even as we advanced) would have been able to set up a tank, put sps corals in it with in weeks of set up, with no real filter or protein skimmer and have been successful with it? Who of us a pet shop owners or employees would suggest that a beginner buy an SPS? Hopefully no one.

Now please understand that it is not my intention to be negative about this experiment, I thinks it's a pretty cool idea. But be realistic. Many advanced aquarist struggle to keep most SPS because of their demanding needs, the combination of a beginner with a new tank and no real means of filtration is going to fail and taint the test results. The corals will likely die because of husbandry needs not raising temperatures. This would surly be a disappointment to the student as well & not really prove anything about temp increase and probibly not get a good grade - all things we are trying to help prevent.

These circumstances in my opinion are better suited to mushrooms or zoanthiads / palys, etc. These corals are much more forgiving of what I bet will be a somewhat unstable environment. They should be able to survive and be able to be put through the temperature test.

Another question, How are water quality parameters going to be tested & maintained?

I'll put tome thought into filtration, perhaps the tank could be built similar to a RDSB filter with some cured live rock to function as a filtration system.

Anyone have an old Skilter or ramora laying around?

Joel,
I greatly appreciate your input.
I actually do have several heaters laying around.
I agree with your sps idea.
I was just sharing what the science teacher had been told was best.  But like you said with the understanding that this is less than an ideal setting for set up I had planned on stressing the easier to care for corals!
Would the mushrooms, zoas etc. be a good judge for her experiment?

Reef'd up:
I think I have 2 hob filters and was going to suggest to do one with carbon another with a macroalgea in there or phosphate.

As far as fish she will need to be without any other inhabitants in the tank besides the coral.
I am going to strongly suggest to the teacher to add in sometype of clean up crew.

[Reefd Up]

If she goes with palys/mushrooms/etc, I can donate some as well. 

[bkvreef]

Well, we are started collecting items.

I think I have enough water made up.
We have the filter, powerheads, heater, thermometer, food, lights, taken care of.

The only thing I'm needing is some live rock.
Does anyone have any live rock (even rubble) that they are willing to donate.

By the way the tank is 30" x 12" x 19" (I believe 29gal)

[coral ranch]

JOhn I have some live rock

[Joel]

PM sent about the live sand.