Berghia Nudibranch Stocking Level

[aquavista99]

I plan to order some berghia soon as well. I will start off with 30 and see how they work out.

[DarinSchmidt]

how big is your tank? i have a 300g and only got 6, 30 will be around $400 and prob will be over kill for any tank.

[lazylivin]

Just FYI Amphipods will eat the Berghia Nudibranch eggs. If you want to grow out a colony you would have to do it in isolated tanks without live rock or other items that would bring in Amphipods and other critters that will eat the eggs.

[aquavista99]

Not overkill at all. I have a loaded  400 gallon SPS system (300 gallon display connected to a 125 gallon refugium).  The general rule of thumb is to "add at least one Berghia per 10 gallons for a moderate to heavy infestation."  “It is not recommended to put less than 6 nudibranchs in any size aquarium as it may be too difficult for them to find a mate in order to breed.”  Another reason why I am adding 30 berghia nudibranchs for  starters is because bristle worms, especially bristle worm nests, are known to eat Berghia to protect their eggs. Like many other hobbysists, I have a thriving population of bristle worms in my reef and refugium as well. 

"The more nudibranchs you start with the faster they find each other to lay eggs and the larger the colony becomes. Thus, the faster the infestation declines leaving your aquarium Aiptasia free!”

If I have success with berghia nudibranchs in my display tank and refugium, I plan to also set up a dedicated 40 gallon breeder tank just for them to breed in without predators present in the same system. 
 

how big is your tank? i have a 300g and only got 6, 30 will be around $400 and prob will be over kill for any tank.

[DarinSchmidt]

ok, but lets think about this, 1 nudi per 10g.... I dont think that a good rule of thumb to follow. You should be more focused on how much area do they have to crawl around and how much food is actually available for them. Putting 30 in there is 30x more of a chance that some will find a bristle worm nest. Just like the whole, "you should have x amount of hermits per gallon". But why that many per gallon, its either there's going to be enough food for them to all survive or not, otherwise you starve them and they die off, wasted money. There needs to be a balance, and i think that, if you even bought 10, thats plenty. They can cover a lot of ground in a day. remember too though, some of these "rule of thumbs" are/can be for marketing. People like to see results within a couple days, but like we all know, saltwater is a long term balancing act. Sure, 30 will prob breed like crazy, if theres enough food for them. And what happens if in 2 weeks they clear out your tank, are you going to be able to keep up with their diet or will many die off?

But to each their own. I bought 6 knowing i have plenty for them to eat and wont have to worry about them starving any time soon so i'm hoping that they will be able to balance themselves out and that the aiptasia can grow fast enough to repopulate to keep the balance going. I already noticed that one of my rocks has almost been cleared of all aiptasia, so it wouldnt be much longer before i have to destroy some on my own to repopulate my tank. And if there arent enough Nudi's in my tank, they will breed and make more. My tank is 355g (300 DT, 55g fuge). I just think that its best to add less than more as it gives them growing room. 30 Nudi's, thats a lot of mouths to feed, esp if/once they breed....

[aquavista99]

 Salty Underground  recommends 32 berghia per 400 gallons of water for a moderate to heavy aiptasia problem (50-100 aiptasia per 100 gallons). ReefTown, which is another commercial vendor of berghia nudibranchs,  recommends "at least one Berghia per 10 gallons for a moderate to heavy infestation."  Getting the right number of Berghia to start off with is important, especially since every captive reef system is different .  In my 400 gallon system, I have used aiptasia as natural filters (ie, they help filter nutrients from my system) for years. In certain areas of my reef, where no predators can reach, my aiptasia will thrive by the hundreds  (ie, in my display tank "overflows" as well as in the "discharge area" of my sump where the dirty water from the tank discharges into my refugium). In addition, I have some aiptasia in my display tank that are large enough to eat fish. Also keep in mind that I am not putting 30 berghia in my display tank...2/3's will go into my 300g display and 1/3 will go into my 125g refugium.

[DarinSchmidt]

I'd like to see how bad your aiptasia are, sounds like you got a really bad case of them then compared to me, i have some that are prety big, but not big enough to eat fish and i may have at most 150. But you arent considering the long term effects that i described above. Sure, 30 now will eat all the aiptasia now, but sustaining their life is going to be really challenging with that many. Just my thoughts.

[Boonjob]

I guess I don't understand why someone would want to sustain a balancing act for berghia and aiptasia? The point to buying them is to rid your aiptasia population... why would you want them to keep balance if your only goals is to kill off the aiptasia? berghia lay 100's of eggs per session so a starting population of  6 could still turn into a population that you don't have enough food for... I was always under the impression that you wanted a good start with them, as there are so many factors that can kill them and you want to make sure they can find each other to mate, I have always read 8-10 per 100 gallons is a good start for MOST aquariums...  and heavy infestations can require even more.


Also breeding at best is a 4-6week wait... if you want your Aiptasia gone before then and have a good infestation... you are going to have to order more for sure...

[DarinSchmidt]

the reason for a balance is because i dont feel that you will always ever get rid of them if they get introduced into the tank. You may get something from someone that has one that you dont see or whatever the case may be, i dont mind there being a few in there, but i dont want them to get out of hand.

[aquavista99]

Exactly, which is why I am starting off with 30 Berghia, even though 32 to 40 would normally be recommended for a 400 gallon system.

I have always read 8-10 per 100 gallons is a good start for MOST aquariums...  and heavy infestations can require even more.

[aquavista99]

My current system is a balancing act, but I would like to ultimately get rid of my aiptasia all together, if possible,  hence the reason why  I plan to add berghia nudibranchs to my system as well.....who knew such an announcement in this thread would cause such a lively debate.

I guess I don't understand why someone would want to sustain a balancing act for berghia and aiptasia? The point to buying them is to rid your aiptasia population...

[lazylivin]

who knew such an announcement in this thread would cause such a lively debate.

There have been interesting points on both sides of this debate.

Just curious Tim, why not go the traditional route of aiptasia removal with peppermint shrimp? Do you have a particular predator in your system that would eat them or are you concerned they would compete for food with your new chalice collection?

[aquavista99]

Brian, I have been utilizing the traditional method of aiptasia removal with peppermint shrimp for years.  My balancing act consists of allowing aiptasia to reproduce unchecked in certain areas of my reef (ie, overflow and refugium) to act as beneficial filter feeders for the reef. This approach is recommended by other advanced hobbyists as well (ie, Scott Fellman, who is speaking at MACNA this weekend advocates the same). To keep the aiptasia in check,  I would use peppermint shrimp in my display tank. However, overtime, my aiptasia numbers increased whereas my peppermint shrimp population decreased. I also noticed overtime that my peppermint shrimp would prefer other food sources, allowing the remaining aiptasia to grow to very large sizes. Once all the remaining peppermint shrimp are removed from my display (ie, I still have one more to catch), I will be going in a different direction to regain the balance and hopefully keep my aiptasia in check for good.

[DarinSchmidt]

I guess that kind of proved my point about "rule of thumbs".

[aquavista99]

I guess that kind of proved my point about "rule of thumbs".

How so?

Just to be objective, you only had berghia nudibaranchs in your system for just a few weeks. It will take several months before you will be able to determine whether or not the amount you selected for your system was effective or not, correct?

[DarinSchmidt]

only how so because you stated that you followed the rule of thumb for x amount of pepermint shrimp but still claim you have a big enough outbreak to sustain 30 nudi's. But I'm not going to get into an argument over this. You spend your $450 on these nudibranches, and i'll settle with my $90 worth and if i feel that they arent keeping up over the next 6mo I'll get some more from them, or from you if needed.

Like Brian said, we have our valid point. Even if my method takes longer, i juts dont want to kill a bunch of nudi's because i didnt have enough to keep them fed and i dont think that there is much risk with them running into bristle worm nests, though i havent seen any aside from in my fuge and the massive 10"er in my DT, but i havent seen any sight of any small ones in my DT in forever.

[chromiumlux]

only how so because you stated that you followed the rule of thumb for x amount of pepermint shrimp but still claim you have a big enough outbreak to sustain 30 nudi's. But I'm not going to get into an argument over this. You spend your $450 on these nudibranches, and i'll settle with my $90 worth and if i feel that they arent keeping up over the next 6mo I'll get some more from them, or from you if needed.

Like Brian said, we have our valid point. Even if my method takes longer, i juts dont want to kill a bunch of nudi's because i didnt have enough to keep them fed and i dont think that there is much risk with them running into bristle worm nests, though i havent seen any aside from in my fuge and the massive 10"er in my DT, but i havent seen any sight of any small ones in my DT in forever.

Turn over a rock or two. lol

[DarinSchmidt]

i have moved my rocks around a couple times in the past 6mo, never seen a "nest"

[aquavista99]

only how so because you stated that you followed the rule of thumb for x amount of pepermint shrimp but still claim you have a big enough outbreak to sustain 30 nudi's. But I'm not going to get into an argument over this. You spend your $450 on these nudibranches, and i'll settle with my $90 worth and if i feel that they arent keeping up over the next 6mo I'll get some more from them, or from you if needed.

I never said I followed any rule of thumb in regards to stocking peppermint shrimp. Rather, I said I used peppermint shrimp in the past as a way to contain my existing aiptasia. I still have one remaining peppermint shrimp in my reef now. Unfortunately, the average lifespan of peppermint shrimp (lysmata wurdemanni) is about two years or so. Unless you restock, your numbers will diminish over time. It has been a while since I purchased peppermint shrimp because I have been planning to add berghia nudibranchs to my reef instead for a while after reading an amazing article in Coral Magazine published back in 2010 by Dr. Patrick Schubert.  As you are aware, berghia nudibranchs and peppermint shrimp are not compatible.

The only "rule of thumb" recommendations I posted comments about came from various berghia nudibranch experts/vendors as follows: Salty Underground recommends "at least 8 berghia per 100 gallons of water for a moderate to heavy aiptasia problem (50-100 aiptasia per 100 gallons)" which is 32 to 40 berghia for a 400 gallon system. Reeftown recommends "at least one per 10 gallons for a moderate to heavy infestation," which is 40 berghia for a 400 gallon system as well. You recommended substantially less, 10 berghia for a 400 gallon system.

So basically, I plan on adding less berghia to my 400 gallon system than what the so-called experts recommend, but more than what you recommend.  At the end of the day, I will do what is best for my system which is to add enough berghia to my reef to insure they can find each other to mate, lay eggs, and eventually, wipe out my existing aiptasia population, if possible.

[DarinSchmidt]

Brian, I have been utilizing the traditional method of aiptasia removal with peppermint shrimp for years.  My balancing act consists of allowing aiptasia to reproduce unchecked in certain areas of my reef (ie, overflow and refugium) to act as beneficial filter feeders for the reef. This approach is recommended by other advanced hobbyists as well (ie, Scott Fellman, who is speaking at MACNA this weekend advocates the same). To keep the aiptasia in check,  I would use peppermint shrimp in my display tank. However, overtime, my aiptasia numbers increased whereas my peppermint shrimp population decreased. I also noticed overtime that my peppermint shrimp would prefer other food sources, allowing the remaining aiptasia to grow to very large sizes. Once all the remaining peppermint shrimp are removed from my display (ie, I still have one more to catch), I will be going in a different direction to regain the balance and hopefully keep my aiptasia in check for good.

you were following a rule of thumb without directly saying it. I'm not saying you are wrong for doing what you are doing, just stressing some concern because i think you are throwing away a lot of money to exterminate the aiptasia. But good luck, this thread has gotten off topic, lets get back to it.

This coming weekend I'll be posting some puctures to see if there has been any progress and I'll try to get some pics posted tonight of how things started provided that homework doesnt take me all night.

[lazylivin]

this thread has gotten off topic, lets get back to it.

split to it's own topic. "Berghia Nudibranch Stocking Level"

[aquavista99]

you were following a rule of thumb without directly saying it. I'm not saying you are wrong for doing what you are doing, just stressing some concern because i think you are throwing away a lot of money to exterminate the aiptasia. B

No. I have always maintained peppermint and cleaner shrimp in my reef at all times, going back to 2005, because I like them!    It was an added benefit that my peppermint shrimp also ate aiptasia, just like it is an added benefit that my tangs consume algae off the rocks in my reef as well.

 I personally think adding a very limited amount of berghia to a large system is not the way to go (ie, your rule of thumb), especially since some or all of the berghia can easily be killed by bristle worms  or other common predators before they are able to become established and reproduce in your tank. One little berghia may not go after a very large aiptaisa successfully, but an established group will. Also, if you only order just a few berghia nudibranchs, some could die during transit and/or during acclimation as well. Others may die by coming into contact with aquarium powerheads and pumps, before they are able to find each other and reproduce in larger systems as well. Berghia are colonial hunters, colonial feeders and colonial breeders. They need each other to hunt, feed and breed, but if you only place a very limited number (ie, 6 ) in a large system (350 to 400 gallons), you may be the one who his throwing throwing away your money by not giving them a fighting chance in the first place.

We can agree to disagree about the numbers, but I think we can agree that once you get a colony of berghia established in your reef, aiptasia populations will decrease. 

[DarinSchmidt]

Well i talked to the owner of SaltyUndrground and she said that based on how many aiptasia i have, she said 6 would do well and shared no concern of so few nudi's.

[aquavista99]

How many aiptasia do you have in your reef? They recommended a lot more berghia for my system based on my existing population.

Well i talked to the owner of SaltyUndrground and she said that based on how many aiptasia i have, she said 6 would do well and shared no concern of so few nudi's.

[DarinSchmidt]

I'm just going to withdraw from this conversation. You mentioning how the nudi's could die from power heads and pumps tells me you are just reaching for anything to prove yourself more correct than me on how many people "need". I got 6 because not everyone has the money to throw at 30. I could have gotten more, but I'm trying to show to others that spending $100, which isnt all that much to many, on these little guys who have on averave 1/2 the tank size of us, that these little guys can do the job and how well they can do it.

I'm not a believer in the rule of thumbs for certain things. I dont believe in instant gratification. I DO believe its a balancing act and you have to find the balance. Kind of like my Algae Skrubber, it only grows as much as the water has nutrients. Even though my Algae is on a screen, it still gets eaten by critters. I think that their rule of thumb is for wiping out aiptasia, or just shoing significant results, within a certain time period. Because lets think about this a little further:

What differes from my tank than Brians?
Mine is bigger, has more rocks, contains more water, more fish, more this, more that. Ok, but break it down by sq'. Then does mine contain more? If we were to follow the same rule of thumb of 1lb of LR per gal, 1" of fish per gallon, etc, i guess it would break down to the same statistics. Sure, there are more prey in my total system, but per sq' i bet its close to the same thing. So whats the difference with someone adding 5-6 in a 55g than me adding 6 in my 350 (total volume) other than it would take 6x longer to wipe out my aiptasia provided that we have close to the same ratio. I'm thinking that the odds of death are the same, but i could be wrong, i'm not afraid to admit that.