Phosphate issue

[lazylivin]

I am looking for some help identifying where my phosphates are coming from?

As most know i have had a 4 tank system all plumbed together for almost a year now. Here is a link to my build. http://www.ohioreef.com/index.php?topic=8725.0 The system consists of a 125G display that drains down to two 75g in the basement which both drain to a 50G where the skimmer and heaters are and then back up to the main display.

About 3 months ago I developed hair algae in the system that took off like a rocket. Before a week vacation a little bit was around and when I came back everything was covered. My phosphates have always ran .02 so I was shocked when I checked and they were 1.50. Did a large water change, added a BRS reactor and GFO. The GFO brought it down to .50 in a couple days and then it exhausted so I had to replace it. After replacing the GFO every 3-7 days I was able to get it down to .05 in about 3-4 weeks. I ended up having to add a second BRS GFO reactor and have them both full to keep up with the phosphate leaching. As you may know GFO does good taking phosphate out the water however it really isn't good for corals, certainly not to the amount I was using. It also costs a fortune.
All the while looking for the problem I decided to add Cheato to one of the 75g tanks. Darin (Thank you) gave me a gallon bag full at the May Ohio Reef meeting. I was surprised that one week later the 75g tank was completely full of cheato. One of my boys not even interested in reef tanks says Dad that is the fastest growing plant I have ever seen. Even with two reactors full of GFO and all the cheato the phosphates were still present and the hair-algae started smothering corals. I had to remove all the corals from the rock into a frag tank because of it. After that I had to scrub the hair algae off the rock but it keeps coming back.
During the past three months trying to find out where the phosphates are coming from I have had a few theories.

1.) The phosphate problem came after adding about 60# of dry rock. I got this rock off another reefer that got out of the hobby. For many reasons but one being because of a frustrating algae issue. So I figured the rocks had phosphate build up so I had muratic acid washed, power washed and let dry for about a couple months. Figured the rock was clean which it seems to be but noticed the phosphate did start within a month of adding it. Thought this was the issue so I removed all this rock from the system. Issue didn't go away, since put it back in.

2.) When I built my aquascape I used about 15 tubes of something called Oatey Fix it Stick. It looked identical to Aquamend, smelled the same and acted the same but was 1/2 the price so I used it. Could this be causing the issue? I removed 2/3 of the aquascape that had this but haven't noticed a change since. There is still likely 5 tubes of this in the system.

These phosphates going up and down, use of GFO is starting to kill my SPS. LPS, softies are just fine.

Here is some additional information:
I feed once a day, flake mostly sometimes a cube of mysis and nori for my tangs. Very sparingly
Calcium 400-450
Alk 10-11
PH 8.1-8.3
Mag 1300-1350
Nitrates 0
Nitrate 0
Ammonia 0
 
If anyone has any ideas please throw them out. Even if they seem silly. I am overlooking something here and it may be obvious.
Thanks for reading
Lazy

[slandis3]

Brian I would look into adding a kalk reactor as you and I were talking about. The kalk helps precipitate phosphates out of the water. They are easy to build and you can get kalk ( mrs wages pickling lime ) for less that $4 a pound.

What salt are you using? How old are you light bulbs, what K are they? Maybe your other rock soaked up phosphates and now they are leaching out.  Do you have any Texas holly rock in your system?

[larrynews]

i still have problems with it in the over flow slots, since switching everything over, but i used Brightwell Aquatics Reef Biofuel Liquid , and it helped get rid of all the other hair algae that was growing on rock and walls.

[Kenn]

Checked the MSDS of Oatey Fix it Stick ... No Phosphates

I am leaning toward Phosphates locked up in your rock

[Boonjob]

Checked the MSDS of Oatey Fix it Stick ... No Phosphates

I am leaning toward Phosphates locked up in your rock

+1?


I think I had this very same problem, I have been running Kent Phosphate sponge(have to dump it every 36hrs or less) it has been sucking the phosphate right out of the water pretty quickly... not sure of the adverse on sps, but my lps and softies have been just fine... I have cut my phosphates from 1.0 to less than .03 I did have some algae forming on the new rocks I added but it has completely halted on growth and spreading since using this sponge.... I was using Brightwell phosphate x(as it boasts to do the same as kent sponge but without releasing everything back into the tank at the 48hr mark) but I was barely noticing a change in numbers... Not sure if this will help you at all Brian, wish I could be more help

I plan on just going to regular GFO once I am out of my sponge... hoping that I sucked everything from the rock by that time, If not I will rinse and repeat I guess

I also have a good amount of the Brightwell left if you would like to give it a whirl, let me know, your more than welcome to try it

[micki]

Cody, how much phosphate sponge have you gone through now and how long have you been running it? 

[Boonjob]

Cody, how much phosphate sponge have you gone through now and how long have you been running it? 

I bought a 1.7lb container, I have half left... I have been running it for almost 6 days? I don't add too much to the reactor, as I did not know what would happen but I have replaced the media 3 times, it is due to change again tomorrow morning.... With that being stated the product reads as follows: brings about 1.0ppm of phosphate or silicates down to less than .05ppm in a 120 gallon tank for every dry quart(1.7lbs) of medium. This product will not release soluble compounds into your aquarium, causing negative reactions from your inverts , as competing products may... Leave for 8hours  to 2days maximum as phosphates can be re-released into the system(I change mine every 36-38)...

I think the brightwell was working as well which is why I have not had to use as much sponge but the brightwell always brought my phos down to about .5 and no lower... but it also says it treats double what this does for the same volume of media(which i think may be false, which lead to me under dosing it)

The brightwell product looks like tiny white balls, the kent looks more like tiny popped popcorn(so I think the cracked surface allows for more absorption)

[lazylivin]

Brian I would look into adding a kalk reactor as you and I were talking about. The kalk helps precipitate phosphates out of the water. They are easy to build and you can get kalk ( mrs wages pickling lime ) for less that $4 a pound.

What salt are you using? How old are you light bulbs, what K are they? Maybe your other rock soaked up phosphates and now they are leaching out.  Do you have any Texas holly rock in your system?

I will have to check into a K-Reactor. I am using Reef Crystals, Bulbs are about 4 weeks old 20K and no Texas Holey Rock. I never thought of it leaching up into the other rock. I only took the rock out of the tank for about 3 weeks and put it back in when I thought I had confirmed it wasn't the issue. Now I am second guessing that decision. Probably should have gave it more time to see.

i still have problems with it in the over flow slots, since switching everything over, but i used Brightwell Aquatics Reef Biofuel Liquid , and it helped get rid of all the other hair algae that was growing on rock and walls.

I will have to read up on the BA-RBL. I use MB7 to kick start they cycle a year ago and like it.

Checked the MSDS of Oatey Fix it Stick ... No Phosphates

I am leaning toward Phosphates locked up in your rock

Can you post up the MSDS link. I couldn't find it. Is there anything in their that could cause phosphates?

+1?


I think I had this very same problem, I have been running Kent Phosphate sponge(have to dump it every 36hrs or less) it has been sucking the phosphate right out of the water pretty quickly... not sure of the adverse on sps, but my lps and softies have been just fine... I have cut my phosphates from 1.0 to less than .03

Do you know where the phosphate came from. Was it bad rock?

[thepipbull]

Hey Lazy do u run carbon. During some of my research i read that another potential source is activated carbon, if you run it. certain brands leach phosphates more than others.

[Wall_Tank]

With as clean as your system is, it has to be the rock.   It could take a very long time for it to "clean" up.   

I'm assuming you don't want to replace all of the rock.  The most cost effective method is probably VSV, with a bacteria suppliment of either MB7 or Prodibio.

A little bit of Kalk might help too.

[Boonjob]

Do you know where the phosphate came from. Was it bad rock?

I do believe it was, There was nothing else in the tank that could have shed that much phosphate in my opinion. I wasn't even feeding every other day at that point.

I'm assuming you don't want to replace all of the rock.  The most cost effective method is probably VSV, with a bacteria suppliment of either MB7 or Prodibio.

A little bit of Kalk might help too.

Is dosing really this beneficial? I have read on it quite abit but I still personally view it to have more negative effects than other comparable choices for what it is supposed to do... Do you Vodka dose at all wall, just wondering if you have ever had a bad experience with it?

I also have been told I should run some kalk in my tank but never really looked into it, Is it also this beneficial or other methods?

[DarinSchmidt]

I'm going to have to say its the rock. With the algae issues the person was having before you when you got it and with how clean i saw your tank when i came to pick up the algae.... Also with how well you said the cheato was growing lol

This would be an opportunistic time to setup an algae scrubber. You can oversize the screen of course to clean as many gallons of water you want. 2sq 1" sections of screen per gallon. 1sq 1" section if lighting both sides = 2sq 1" sections lit. I would oversize the screen maybe to clean an extra 50-100 gallons. If you wanted, we could use my screen to expidite a screen for you, actually now that i think about it, if you are OK with waiting till next weekend, i might have a screen ready for you just about. Since i just recieved my new screen, i can rough it up tonight, zip tie it to the existing screen i have, once the algae takes hold to the new, i can give you my old screen.

I have the 30th through the 4th off, which i could help you setup the skrubber if needed. And to really help the algae grow fast, i wouldnt use anything less than 100w CFL 2700k bulbs. Preferably the T5's work better as it distributes the light better, but reg CFL's work well also.

What will happen is at first, depending on how much nutrients are in your system, a dark algae might form, clean it off every 3-4 days, eventually the bright green hard algae will grow, as you will see with the screen i bring you, and then once most of the dark algae is gone, then you can switch to cleaning once week. This will safely remove all the crap out of your water.

[Wall_Tank]

Is dosing really this beneficial? I have read on it quite abit but I still personally view it to have more negative effects than other comparable choices for what it is supposed to do... Do you Vodka dose at all wall, just wondering if you have ever had a bad experience with it?

I also have been told I should run some kalk in my tank but never really looked into it, Is it also this beneficial or other methods?

Dosing is a way to help control the problems.  Sure it would be better to replace all of the rock, but that may not be an option for him.   I'm not sure a turf scrubber is an easy option for his setup either.

Yes, I dosed VV (no sugar) for about 3 years.  I knew the source of my nutrients.  In my case is was a DSB that had some spots that were building up waste.   I just didn't want to pull my tank apart to resolve.    I was able to keep phosphates and nitrates undetectable, almost to the point of ultra-low nutrients in the water column.   I just didn't have the coloration in the corals that I wanted, so I backed off a little on the dosing so that I could just detect Phosphate and nitrate, and that really helped coloration.   Problems with VSV dosing are mostly related to inpatients and incrasing doses too fast.   Even at the largest dose range, I had only had slight bacteria outbreak.  But since the increase in dose was very small, it went away pretty quick when I backed off on the dose.

Now that I have torn my tank down, and removed the nitrate problem.  I have stopped dosing my temp tank setup.   Nitrates are staying around 5-8 right now.   When I removed the sand, there were pockets of waste sludge, mainly in the corners near the bottom......man that really smelled.   I plan to setup a DSB in my sump on my new tank.....it will be after a mechanical filter and my skimmer, so it should stay cleaner.

A DSB might be able to help Brian too, but that will take a while to get the bacteria built up.

[mrfish183]

I may have missed it someplace but what are the PO4 levels of your topoff water and saltwater used in water changes?

You might want to remove one of the suspected rocks, soak it in dilute HCl for a couple days, remove the soak water, adjust its pH to ~ 7 w/NaOH, and then test the soak water for PO4.  If the PO4 is high, then you know your source.

I'd be more inclined to believe your rock is harboring much detritus.  PO4 loaded detritus accumulates in regions of low flow and can solubilize at low pH.  Even if your ambient pH is high, the local pH near the rock can be low as a result of bacterial action.  Also, once hair algae or cyano grabs hold it can easily pull PO4 from those areas even though your ambient water shows virtually nothing. 

I'd start by making sure your topoff water and makeup saltwater is PO4 free.  I'd then go through the tank and remove all the detritus I could (repeat as often as needed, which may be several weeks).  I'd continue to use lots of GFO (well rinsed; preferably the extra hard HC GFO type).  I've used 1000 mL at a time and changed it every week w/o any issue w/SPS.  It is expensive but you can reguvenate it for cents on the dollar.  You could also use lanthanium chloride (available at the pool store) but there is more reef experience w/GFO = potentially safer.  The chaeto also appears to be working well for you so I'd continue until it dies .   

Carbon dosing really isn't going to help you assuming your stated water parameters are correct.  The bacteria developed by dosing carbon need N from nitrate and P from phosphate in a 16:1 ratio.  As such, you have no nitrate for the bacteria to consume and phosphate removal would be minimal --> except for the case of cyanobacteria, which can fix nitrogen directly from the water.  However, I don't think you want to replace hair algae with a nice cyano bloom, which C dosing at low NO3 might cause. 

Just my $0.02.

[cyberwollf]

I may have missed it someplace but what are the PO4 levels of your topoff water and saltwater used in water changes?

That was my first thought.  you at 0 TDS and 0 phos out of your DI?

[kattz]

I've kinda stayed out of this because I'm new to the hobby as far as having a tank.  Brian, as you know, I had to get rid of 50 lbs of rock, substrate change, and a salt change to get rid of nitrates.  I'm running GFO and GAC in my tank, and SPS are (finally!  woo hoo!) doing great.  My guess is TDS or rock issues, or as I found in my tank, perhaps a "muddy" layer under your substrate has the PO4 locked up in it - perhaps in your sumps or secondary tanks even.  I now have a hair algae and red slime issue that I never had before, and am going to try Algaefix Marine after all of the positive (25 pages) feedback on it from RC.  I'm with mrfish on this one, and I'd check your salt water - phosphates could be in the salt.  That's what separated me from TMRP salt - nitrate/phosphate issues.

Kev

[DarinSchmidt]

I think an easy solution would be to give a $50 skrubber a shot. Doesnt cost much, easy to setup and Brian mentioned to me he has the room for it. Could alleviate a lot of other troubleshooting, buying different kinds of salts, getting rid of rock, etc.

Kattz, a skrubber would also take care of your algae issue, may raise your electric bill 5 bucks, but it does more than combat algae where you dont want it, really helps keep your water quality stable and under control, also helps keep your PH stable. To me, dosing chemicals to get rid of algae is a short term gain. I went through two huge bottles in my 55gal tank years back of some stuff that worked, killed the algae, i fed less, turned the lights off sooner, etc, always eventual came back.

I know it seems that i push this skrubber hard, but i believe in what i know works, and i have done my fair share if trial and error on products, wasted countless dollars on stuff that "worked" for others, etc. Been running a skrubber for a few years now and it hasnt let me down yet, has allowed me to do fewer water changes and dose some chemicals which is cheaper than doing weekly 10-20% water changes. All i dose is Calc, Alk, and soon to be Mag because of the clams i now have. Still running off the same water when i setup my tank a few months ago and my water quality hasnt changed at all. Just stopped the Skimmer a few days ago and will be testing the water this coming weekend to make sure my screen is up to par with handling the amount of water that i have. I have yet to meet or hear someone say that an established skrubber didnt work for them. And an algae skrubber can be made to fit anywhere, within reason.

[kattz]

Plans?  Info?  Interested.

[Wall_Tank]

So Darin is finally starting to wear on me.   So I did a little reading.   It does appear to be effective, it is curious what is making this come back.  One of the Sticky build threads on ReefCentral was only started this year.   I would consider this to be a high maintenance category, once setup, your cleaning the screen every 5-7 days.  Removing the screen and going to a sink is recommended as to not let dirty water (Water that would get squeezed from the plant material when scraping)

A lot of folks seem to be using cheap CFL bulbs, 2700K.  But they are saying that after 3 months they need to be changed.   I am assuming they are seeing some color shift in the bulbs that are limiting the effectiveness of the light.   Salt creep can also be an issue with these systems.

I think I'm going to stick with a DSB in my sump.   And just grow some Macro.  A lot lower maintenance.   The thing with a DSB is to feed it clean water.  That prevents any detritus build up in the DSB

[DarinSchmidt]

http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=68
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420


These will get you started as there are a ton of examples and info on what works.

If you look at the Ken inspired Algae Turf Skrubber discussion i started, its rather simple. You need 35-45gph of flow for every horizontal inch of screen, 2 1sq"s of screen per gallon, .5-1w of light per gallon of water in your DT you are skrubbing. Light it for 18 on 6 off. clean off the dark "slimy" algae every 3-4 days till you get the course light green algae.

Just remember, if lets say you only have 200gph of flow, that means that you can have about 5" horizontal screen. You can make the screen as tall (vertical) as you want to make the screen big enough to clean the water. So basically you dont need a wide screen to skrub properly.

So Darin is finally starting to wear on me.   So I did a little reading.   It does appear to be effective, it is curious what is making this come back.  One of the Sticky build threads on ReefCentral was only started this year.   I would consider this to be a high maintenance category, once setup, your cleaning the screen every 5-7 days.  Removing the screen and going to a sink is recommended as to not let dirty water (Water that would get squeezed from the plant material when scraping)

A lot of folks seem to be using cheap CFL bulbs, 2700K.  But they are saying that after 3 months they need to be changed.   I am assuming they are seeing some color shift in the bulbs that are limiting the effectiveness of the light.   Salt creep can also be an issue with these systems.

I think I'm going to stick with a DSB in my sump.   And just grow some Macro.  A lot lower maintenance.   The thing with a DSB is to feed it clean water.  That prevents any detritus build up in the DSB

You clean it every 7 days once the light green algae has taken over. Maintenance on the system is as complex as you want to make it with e DIY design. It takes me maybe 5min, if that, to disassemble the screen, clean it, and put it back together. Salt creep is only an issue if you build walls to stop splatter, which there are other designs that do just as well without building a wall to prevent splatter.

I donno about letting "dirty water" back into the system, as far as i'm aware, its so that you dont release any algae back into the system so that it will decompose and make the waste that you were trying to get out BUT some of your fish might appreciate the treat that like algae. Some people set the screen in their DT for 30min or so and let their fish pick at it as its also good for their diet.

And yes, you have to replace the lights, just as if you were to have PC lights for corals. However, there is some research being done with LEDs, which i plan on venturing into this winter when i have nothing else to do.

[DarinSchmidt]

oh and why is it making a comback? mostly because our light technology has advanced to allow us to actually grow the algae properly. Though what we are growing on the screen isnt really Turf Algae, but algae already in your system, and taking advantage of that by allowing it to grow where we want it to, starving out the areas that we dont want it to.

[Boonjob]

I didn't have the algae scrubber up and running long enough for it to make a significant difference IMO or for me to comment on long term success, but there was coincidence that my numbers did begin to drop with the growth of the algae on the screen(and the prospect of running skimmer less and feeding all you wanted did and still seems nice)... With that being said I think it is worth a shot for the price... However I am currently not and have no intention of running one on my new/current setup, as I opted for the DSB and planted fuge... Not because I dont have faith in the ATS, but rather I really love the look of the planted fuge, and cleaning that screen every 7 days(no matter how simple or little time it took) was still "another thing" I HAD to do... and I found it to become a little annoying trying to schedule another item in on the TO-DO list... That is really the only reasons... And they do stink a little bit if you get uneven flow or the algae begins to plug up your tube, things would plug up and I wouldn't really stop to notice it until it started to get a little funky smelling around the tank.

If your bored and have 50 bucks to spend, build ya one, not like it hurts to rip it down if you become disinterested with it.

Also on the DSB, I have never ran one before, they do seem pretty straight forward... however the way my sump is set up atm allows for the tank overflow to flow into the first chamber which is merely a small tower bubble trap, then it dumbs into my fuge(dsb) then into the skimmer/pump section... I see where you said to allow only clean water at it, and it makes 100% sense, however given my setup, would throwing filter socks on the over flow outlet tubes be enough? or do I really need to reroute everything to the other side of the sump?

[DarinSchmidt]

yeah, the smell you are getting i forgot to mention is from the dark algae from the high nutrients in your tank that it is removing. Once its the light green, you can only smell it if you put your nose on it, at least thats how it is in my tank. But i have narrowed my maintenance to basically cleant he glass, the sand once in a while and do the screen once a week, so maintenance on my big tank is very minimal. Sometimes i let the screen go for 2 weeks if i dont have time and i havent had any negative effects, but i wouldnt recommend doing that all the time. Oh and i dose chemicals every couple weeks. So at most i spend 1hr a week, if that, on maintenance on my tank.

[kattz]

My sump is covered, and I'm not willing to dump money back into the system for lighting, modifications, and so forth at this time.  Plus, my tank is near my library of almost $10k worth of books and my computer system, which is around $4K, so the less salt and water vapor in the air at my location, the better.  Thanks for the links; I'm gonna skip it for now.

Kev

[DarinSchmidt]

you should add your books to our library even though i'm sure they're not all fish related

But yeah, whenever you feel like giving it a try, an enclosed system can be easily made and still not cost much, maybe 100, or close to that depending on how it needs to be made. Still rather minimal in price considering all that it does and the money you may save in other areas.


You have a $4k cmputer, what do you have a dual zeon with 10TB of drive space or something? 4 Monitors with some high end graphics cards?