Author Topic: DIY LEDs - anybody using or want to use? (Read 7122 times)

rayk · « **on:** July 12, 2009, 14:17:18 »

Looking at LEDs as a lighting source, with Cap and Trade on the horizion, in whichever form, will probably significantly increase electricty cost from coal-based suppliers (i.e the midwest).

Anybody use LEDs for coral growth at all?
Anybody ever built any of the LED DIY fixtures as described on Reefcentral?
Anybody interested in building the LED DIY fixture (i.e. group buy on LEDs for cheaper prices)?

If I expand my tank, I may keep my MH but why add more MHs if the cost of electricity goes up, when LEDs are supposed to be so much more efficient.

Thanks,
Ray

rayk · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2009, 14:40:20 »

Whoops, just realized I posted this in equipment instead of DIY. Can an admin move it please?

Also, was using the reefcentral power calculator, looks like my 400 W MH costs $8.27 per month to operate at current DP&L rates. Adding minimum 2 more MHs, and a 25% increase in electricity costs, that would be about $30 per month for MH. Even if I only save half, that would be $15 per month. Also, I would eliminate the $10 per month for VHO actinics. So $25 per month, less heat, less cost to change bulbs... may be a winner if they actually work, which folks on reefcentral seem to think they do.

cyberwollf · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2009, 14:56:39 »

I did a ton a reaserch and drew up the circuit, but never pulled the trigger on the project. How big of a tank you want to light. It's reasonable for nano's. But, with tank size your price increases quick. You can hit mutiple 1000 real fast

rayk · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2009, 15:30:04 »

Yep, I'm researching that now..... the tank will be 8 ft long if I ever get it, and the problem seems to be the number of power supplies and buck-pucks I will need. Perhaps my original MH plan will just have to work for now, as I can't blow out my cost estimate for the wifey will get nervous... well, more nervous...

- Rayk

jd · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2009, 16:17:22 »

I think we are still a little ways away from LED's being common. Even in big group buys they still cost nearly $5 each. For an 8' tank you'd need a ton just to run the lengh. What are your planned dimensions? I'm thinking of building an 8 footer also

slandis3 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2009, 17:10:03 »

Quote from: rayk on July 12, 2009, 14:40:20

Whoops, just realized I posted this in equipment instead of DIY. Can an admin move it please?

Done

harleyrider · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2009, 17:10:39 »

Dont mean to butt in, but ive been researching led's for some time now, and from what ive read from other people that have them they are simply fantastic, solaris has some good facts on them, with all the different rating, i have been trickin around with them for quite some time and are very impressed with what i have seen...Alot of the other forums on the net also have some pretty good facts on them too!

Blown76mav · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2009, 17:12:36 »

Quote from: jd on July 12, 2009, 16:17:22

I think we are still a little ways away from LED's being common. Even in big group buys they still cost nearly $5 each. For an 8' tank you'd need a ton just to run the lengh. What are your planned dimensions? I'm thinking of building an 8 footer also

What kind are you looking at? LED's are usually less than 1$ each

slandis3 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2009, 17:14:02 »

creed ( sp? ) leds are what you need they are still up there in price.

Wall_Tank · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2009, 17:18:47 »

http://ledsupply.com/creexre.php

Cree Stars. These are already mounted on a plate for easy attachment to a heat sink.

If I do one it'll be for my frag tank first......smaller size needed.

Blown76mav · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2009, 17:29:29 »

Wow!!!!! WAYYYY to much. Check this out....

http://mcmelectronics.com/product/NTE-ELECTRONICS-NTE30045-/NTE30045

1.89 each and 1.69 each/100

Yep you have to mount them but LED's don't need a heat sink.

slandis3 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2009, 17:32:33 »

the cree leds are what the Solaris fixtures use. A standard led will not perform as well. There is a huge write up on reef central about the difference between the 2.

harleyrider · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2009, 17:33:06 »

ive been getting the same thing but without the heat sink, anywhere from .89 to 1.75ish other than the heat sink all the specs the same

Blown76mav · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2009, 17:40:32 »

Don't want to start an internet war but the ones your looking at are 107 lumens (not very bright) I've found White LED's 360,000 Lumens for 64$ for 50. Thats only 1.28 each. I would think we would want bright LED's for lighting. Now if your just doing moon lights then the 107 lumen is fine. But to light a tank I don't think they will work.

http://cgi.ebay.com/50p-H-P-Super-Bright-1W-10mm-WHITE-LED-LAMP-360-000mcd_W0QQitemZ370160981309QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item562f50553d&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|293%3A1|294%3A30

harleyrider · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2009, 17:40:48 »

Do some research with (Lamp Elves) out of California, i do beleive you will be quite surprized!!

harleyrider · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2009, 17:43:37 »

your right Blown,,, the ones i get, the blue (atinic) is 528 nm,

Wall_Tank · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2009, 18:27:26 »

Quote from: Blown76mav on July 12, 2009, 17:40:32

Don't want to start an internet war but the ones your looking at are 107 lumens (not very bright) I've found White LED's 360,000 Lumens for 64$ for 50.

those are 360,000 mcd's not lumens. These could be bright, but it depends on the lens angle. If it is the typical 15-20 degree lens angle, it's probably only about 40-50 lumens

Granted the Cree Stars are probably overpriced due to the hype.

If your buying the Cree emiters not mounted, becareful to read the surface mount criteria. Surface mount soldering is quite a tricky science.

Blown76mav · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2009, 18:34:42 »

Quote from: Wall_Tank on July 12, 2009, 18:27:26

those are 360,000 mcd's not lumens. These could be bright, but it depends on the lens angle. If it is the typical 15-20 degree lens angle, it's probably only about 40-50 lumens

Granted the Cree Stars are probably overpriced due to the hype.

If your buying the Cree emiters not mounted, becareful to read the surface mount criteria. Surface mount soldering is quite a tricky science.

I know the difference between lumes and MCD's its 360000 MCD ( I missedtyped) = 172 lumens which is brighter than the 107 for 3 times the cost. The angle is 45* BTW

heres a conversion link for ya.

http://led.linear1.org/lumen.wiz

TechGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2009, 18:55:57 »

You guys need to quit worrying about Lumens or MCD of these LED's and look at the Par rating. If you guys are serious, you need to google "Lumens Vs Par". Then find someone with a PAR meter (if you can), start buying LEDS, and measure. Once you have some solid readings, post back. I would love for someone to come up with a PAR rating for different brand/wavelength LED's.

Lots of trial and error getting the colors the way you want. Because Lumens/MCD does not equal PAR. I think you will find it quite difficult to find the right combo of colors, to meet your required PAR, and Lumens for each color to balance.

Hence the reason prebuilt fixtures are so expensive, and come in small sizes.

Supplementing your reef with different colors of LED is a cool way to bring out certain colors, and something I will be experimenting with. But I will still need my good old T-5's, and Halides for the Photosynthetic radiation.

Plus, your worried about saving money. In the long run how much have you saved? How much energy is this fixture going to consume VS Halides VS the start up cost (labor + parts + research). After a bit of time with the PAR meter, I think you will find the required LED's are expensive. More than its worth.

But, by all means. Give this a shot. Point light sources make a reef look so much cooler with the shimmer. LED's are cool to begin with. Like I said, I want someone to post a scientific result of PAR for each LED.

slandis3 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2009, 19:00:44 »

Here is the link from RC. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1587273&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

TechGuy · « **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2009, 19:09:06 »

Quote from: slandis3 on July 12, 2009, 19:00:44

Here is the link from RC. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1587273&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

There you have it

Those are Softie PAR ratings though

Blown76mav · « **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2009, 19:11:48 »

Quote from: TechGuy40 on July 12, 2009, 18:55:57

You guys need to quit worrying about Lumens or MCD of these LED's and look at the Par rating. If you guys are serious, you need to google "Lumens Vs Par". Then find someone with a PAR meter (if you can), start buying LEDS, and measure. Once you have some solid readings, post back. I would love for someone to come up with a PAR rating for different brand/wavelength LED's.

Lots of trial and error getting the colors the way you want. Because Lumens/MCD does not equal PAR. I think you will find it quite difficult to find the right combo of colors, to meet your required PAR, and Lumens for each color to balance.

Hence the reason prebuilt fixtures are so expensive, and come in small sizes.

Supplementing your reef with different colors of LED is a cool way to bring out certain colors, and something I will be experimenting with. But I will still need my good old T-5's, and Halides for the Photosynthetic radiation.

Plus, your worried about saving money. In the long run how much have you saved? How much energy is this fixture going to consume VS Halides VS the start up cost (labor + parts + research). After a bit of time with the PAR meter, I think you will find the required LED's are expensive. More than its worth.

But, by all means. Give this a shot. Point light sources make a reef look so much cooler with the shimmer. LED's are cool to begin with. Like I said, I want someone to post a scientific result of PAR for each LED.

I agree PAR is important, but Higher Lumens/MCD = Higher Par. Kelvin is another thing to consider as well. But as it seems the white LED's are in the 6500K range and the Blue are in the 20,000K range. Seems we have seen these numbers somewhere before..... As far as cost there is no denying that a LED cost less to run than a T5 or a MH. Both of these use Watts, a LED uses Miliwatts WAY less electric to run them.

I was pointing out that there are less expensive LED's that will do the same job as the Cree Stars, you just have to do a little work.

harleyrider · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2009, 19:17:51 »

I agree Blown, we have this wonderful thing called the internet, research can make you sweat though i guess right lol

cyberwollf · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2009, 19:21:05 »

All the research is out there just gatta find it. there are a couple of Folks on RC with spectrum analyzers and everything. The isn't an led in the 5mm package that can give you the output of the Cree's. You have no idea of what the binning qualities were on the eBay stuff. With the huge amount of heat produced by the Crees and other 3+ watt how could a normal package led dissipate the heat. Odds are the LEDs there are WAY overdriven (if they actually meet the spec quoted) and they will die quick. Source of great info and diy led design was pdelcast on RC. Or ANYTHING Evil666 posts in on nanoreef.

TechGuy · « **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2009, 19:28:03 »

Quote from: Blown76mav on July 12, 2009, 19:11:48

I agree PAR is important, but Higher Lumens/MCD = Higher Par. Kelvin is another thing to consider as well. But as it seems the white LED's are in the 6500K range and the Blue are in the 20,000K range. Seems we have seen these numbers somewhere before..... As far as cost there is no denying that a LED cost less to run than a T5 or a MH. Both of these use Watts, a LED uses Miliwatts WAY less electric to run them.

I was pointing out that there are less expensive LED's that will do the same job as the Cree Stars, you just have to do a little work.

No, higher lumens does not equal PAR. Not with every LED anyways, or every light source for that matter. Kelvin has more an effect on PAR than lumens I agree. Because of the wavelength that your coral will respond to.

I'm aware of the power consumption. But your power supplies use watts to drive the LEDS. The point was the ridiculous start up cost. The time and labor required, its just not worth it IMHO.

Not only the time and money. But has anyone really seen the LONG term results of an LED lit tank? Quite the gamble I think.

But like I said. I want to see some end results.

rayk · « **Reply #25 on:** July 12, 2009, 19:55:00 »

Would have been nice to have this industry open up, but not sure anybody can beat that defense contractor that has the generic patent (Orbit I think it is). They have tons of cash to throw at the patent defense, and PFO already couldn't fight them off. Apparently, anybody who hangs an LED over an aquarium 'may' be in infringement of their patent.

Anyways, if the industry could open up a bit, I'm sure we'd see some comparison tests, long term affects, etc. Who knows when/if that will happen.

So for now, the up front cost seems to be out of line for the energy savings, so my main argument to my wife is gone. End of discussion for me... lol Perhaps a frag tank experiment is in order sometime after ....

- Rayk

Blown76mav · « **Reply #26 on:** July 12, 2009, 20:18:52 »

Sorry but you can only infringe on a patent if your selling them, building something for your own personal use is ok. Trust me, I've been down this road with Ford and a licensed product. I was able to make it, never sold it they couldn't stop me. Sorry to burst your bubble.

TechGuy · « **Reply #27 on:** July 12, 2009, 20:26:45 »

Quote from: rayk on July 12, 2009, 19:55:00

Perhaps a frag tank experiment is in order sometime after ....

- Rayk

Yes, and I am working on that...

Very cool Tech...

slandis3 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 12, 2009, 20:47:43 »

I have some ebay blue 5mm leds i got a few years back. I had a few go out so i replaced them. WOW the difference between the new and the old was amazing. The new were twice as bright. I will try and find some old ones and wire up a new one to show the difference. Thats what i would be worried about. I understand leds are supposed to last for a long time but have seen they will lose brightness over time just like a halide or vho/pc bulb. I would rather unscrew/unplug a bulb rather than have to take down the fixture and unsoldier and re-soldier a bunch of leds.

TechGuy · « **Reply #29 on:** July 12, 2009, 23:16:48 »

Quote from: slandis3 on July 12, 2009, 20:47:43

I have some ebay blue 5mm leds i got a few years back. I had a few go out so i replaced them. WOW the difference between the new and the old was amazing. The new were twice as bright. I will try and find some old ones and wire up a new one to show the difference. Thats what i would be worried about. I understand leds are supposed to last for a long time but have seen they will lose brightness over time just like a halide or vho/pc bulb. I would rather unscrew/unplug a bulb rather than have to take down the fixture and unsoldier and re-soldier a bunch of leds.

The issue with this technology...

jd · « **Reply #30 on:** July 14, 2009, 16:22:00 »

Just found this sweet little tank with a DIY LED light.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1658978&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

TechGuy · « **Reply #31 on:** July 14, 2009, 16:42:36 »

Thats just awesome.

jd · « **Reply #32 on:** July 14, 2009, 16:51:32 »

Quote from: TechGuy40 on July 14, 2009, 16:42:36

Thats just awesome.

Isn't it? I love the skimmer he made. That light looks just awesome. Can you imagine... ~$150 and you never have to buy bulbs again. Plus how little it cost to run it!

jd · « **Reply #33 on:** July 15, 2009, 13:41:17 »

Here's a write up on 5mm vs Cree stars. Makes some interesting points.

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=189361

Blown76mav · « **Reply #34 on:** July 15, 2009, 17:13:47 »

The cheap ones look better to me, as far as the heat sink I don't think its all that critical. I mean look at my 250w MH's them suckers will burn you in an instant (see spot 2months old on my arm) I don't care how many LED's you put together they are not going to burn you like that. And I'm not sure how the life of the 5mm can be less than the Cree's, they use less power/LED, look how many he had wired to come up with the same 3.7v compared to ONE Cree.

Logzor · « **Reply #35 on:** July 15, 2009, 20:21:44 »

There is no PAR rating from what I read, which is disappointing.

One of the points for the comparison is that you want more power from one point for better light penetration. This is why the cree is superior. As far as bulbs burning you...this has nothing to do with the light output. An old 100w incandescent bulb will burn my fingers but I can hold onto a 23w CFL yet the CFL puts out just as much if not more light.

A Cincyreef member has built a small array for their nano-cube (Beastie - check the DIY thread). He is getting 700+ par in the top of the water and 200 near the bottom which is just as good as a MH. I saw it in person and it is super bright and they can be dimmed. His setup is basically producing lighting similar to a 150w MH while only it uses 36w.

FWIW when I saw this tank in person Brad switched on only the royal blue LEDs and it was the most amazing actinic look I have ever seen.

I am pretty sure the hint sinks on the cree chips are a must or else it will melt down. Cree is pretty much on the top of LED technology - which is why their chips last longer than those old 5mms.

Here is a link to the build: http://www.cincyreef.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13662

jd · « **Reply #36 on:** July 15, 2009, 21:12:57 »

I would have loved a PAR reading as well.

Blown: The heat sink is required. Not as big as he had but they are needed. They get very hot, they may run without the heatsink but it will kill the LED sooner. Well cooler = longer life. 5mm don't last as long because they aren't meant to. The Cree's cost more because they have a better wafer in them.

cyberwollf · « **Reply #37 on:** July 15, 2009, 21:57:35 »

Big difference in a burning filament in the MH and the silicon junction in a semiconductor. Just a few seconds of over tempature in the P-N junction and you have a big loss in total life, not to mention shift in spectrum. Pretty interesting when you get into the semiconductor physics, the gap in the P-N junction is spaced (Fermi-Gap) so that the wavelength of the released photon is what you want, be it IR or daylight.

Enough geeking for now

TechGuy · « **Reply #38 on:** July 15, 2009, 22:12:01 »

Quote from: cyberwollf on July 15, 2009, 21:57:35

Big difference in a burning filament in the MH and the silicon junction in a semiconductor. Just a few seconds of over tempature in the P-N junction and you have a big loss in total life, not to mention shift in spectrum. Pretty interesting when you get into the semiconductor physics, the gap in the P-N junction is spaced (Fermi-Gap) so that the wavelength of the released photon is what you want, be it IR or daylight.

Enough geeking for now

No, not enough geek sir.

This is why this technology is not ready for the masses.

Blown76mav · « **Reply #39 on:** July 15, 2009, 23:32:02 »

For some odd reason you guys think this is new tech? We've been doing this in the auto industry for years. I guess I'll take what knowledge I have about this and keep it to myself.

Have fun spending a lot of money for an overpriced gadget.

harleyrider · « **Reply #40 on:** July 16, 2009, 00:05:52 »

I hear ya Blown, ive run them on my harley for 3 yrs now, and the last house i built, i put over 700 leds for over head lighting above and behind cove molding for mood lighting in all four bed rooms, and in the basement and bar , in the 4 years i lived there i never had one burn out, and as far as heat goes if they got hot i wouldnt have built them in, never even got luck warm!!! although i did lose one, one time on my bike but it was from vibration, not heat or age..that is exactly why your Semi truck went to them shoot 10 years ago i remember changin mine over at the time, they dont burn out and you dont keep getting pulled over by the state patrol for burnt out lights, and as forest says, thats all i have to say about that!

Logzor · « **Reply #41 on:** July 16, 2009, 10:09:22 »

Check out the build in the link I posted a few back. An array of 12 3w cree chips can be put together for around $220. The par is insane and they will last around 13 years. Considering what you save on lamps and electricity you can not beat it. I still think it needs a bit of time before they become the obvious choice, though. There is already another chip out that is even more powerful than the 3w cree. I am pretty excited. If I can pick a few peoples brains I want to put one together for a small frag tank.

TechGuy · « **Reply #42 on:** July 16, 2009, 10:33:18 »

Quote from: Blown76mav on July 15, 2009, 23:32:02

For some odd reason you guys think this is new tech? We've been doing this in the auto industry for years. I guess I'll take what knowledge I have about this and keep it to myself.

Have fun spending a lot of money for an overpriced gadget.

No its not. Its just not for the masses. When people start losing LED's whos going to replace them? Its just not as simple as buying a new T5 bulb.

slandis3 · « **Reply #43 on:** July 16, 2009, 10:36:07 »

We all agree about the 5mm lights lasting for ever and not getting hot like the cree's do. The problem is the 5mm led's lose intensity much quicker than the cree. If you were to build a new light for your harley and compare it to your old one, the new one would be brighter.So to keep the par up you would need to change them evey year like regular bulbs. Now this is still cheaper than regular bulbs but a pain in the butt if i had about a 1000 leds over my 250 and had to change them out every year to keep my par #'s up

Logzor · « **Reply #44 on:** July 16, 2009, 10:47:12 »

"The Cree life rating assumes an average of 70% lumens maintenance after 50,000 hrs for a junction temperature of 80C"

You could run these for over 11 years @ 12 hours a day without losing PAR from what I understand. Even after that you still have 70% output. Why would you have to change them out every year light regular bulbs?

Even the older commercial aquarium led systems claim this lifespan and consistient output (aquaillumination, etc).

TechGuy · « **Reply #45 on:** July 16, 2009, 11:03:53 »

This is what I wanted to know. The lifespan, and how much is lost over time. You guys are going to make me buy a Pico tank and build one lol.

slandis3 · « **Reply #46 on:** July 16, 2009, 11:05:45 »

Quote from: Logzor on July 16, 2009, 10:47:12

"The Cree life rating assumes an average of 70% lumens maintenance after 50,000 hrs for a junction temperature of 80C"

You could run these for over 11 years @ 12 hours a day without losing PAR from what I understand. Even after that you still have 70% output. Why would you have to change them out every year light regular bulbs?

Even the older commercial aquarium led systems claim this lifespan and consistient output (aquaillumination, etc).

I am talking about the cheaper 5mm leds.
"The problem is the 5mm led's lose intensity much quicker than the cree."

Logzor · « **Reply #47 on:** July 16, 2009, 11:10:48 »

Opps, I missed that! Yeah those 5mm are definitely going to be left in the dust.

I really want to try and LED build for a small frag or qt tank. I could actually justify adding one to my system if I use led's. I believe the nano reef people have public powerbuys for all of the components. Last time they had one is was very reasonably priced for a 13 cree chip system (drivers and all).

Definitely talk to Brad (Beastie). He can tell you everything that you need to know.

jd · « **Reply #48 on:** July 16, 2009, 11:28:33 »

I've been thinking about doing this with my Pico. It needs an overhaul anyway. I'll accept donations to be the guinea pig

TechGuy · « **Reply #49 on:** July 16, 2009, 12:08:59 »

Quote from: jd on July 16, 2009, 11:28:33

I've been thinking about doing this with my Pico. It needs an overhaul anyway. I'll accept donations to be the guinea pig

How do you like your Pico? I was going to buy one for work. Hows the stock lighting?

jd · « **Reply #50 on:** July 16, 2009, 12:21:50 »

The stock isn't too bad. It works well for softies. I managed to score another stock light so I have them on either side. Neat tank. I would love to put LEDs on it. I run a cheapie HOB with chemipure and floss and its been doing well.

TechGuy · « **Reply #51 on:** July 16, 2009, 20:08:10 »

Quote from: jd on July 16, 2009, 12:21:50

The stock isn't too bad. It works well for softies. I managed to score another stock light so I have them on either side. Neat tank. I would love to put LEDs on it. I run a cheapie HOB with chemipure and floss and its been doing well.

So I just picked one up

$31 on clearance from a non-sponsor. Its purdy. Pink/purple pally frag, some GSP, green richordia, and an orange shroom.

LEDS soon.

jd · « **Reply #52 on:** July 16, 2009, 21:48:28 »

Dang?! $31 bucks is all? Well done. I got mine for $50... I was pricing LEDs for it, looks like it will be about 60 bucks or so.

2024 Ohio Reef Frag Swap

Author Topic: DIY LEDs - anybody using or want to use? (Read 7122 times)

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