Spin off on Cyano thread

[~reefchik~]

Instant Ocean and cyano. 

Who thinks they go hand in hand?

[harleyrider]

Never had any problems whats so ever with I/O

[Aquatic Specialists]

I believe IO has somthing to do with it.

[TechGuy]

I believe IO has somthing to do with it.

I'm with you. The I/O I used in the past was utter crap.

I know that each bucket may mix differently, but thats not acceptable. I/O contains Nitrates and Phosphates. I have tested my R/O water, and I/O fresh mixed and detected both.

[Reefd Up]

Used IO off and on for almost 3 years...never had a breakout of cyano other than the initial cycling of my tank.

[jeremyt]

dont ever bash I.O. 

[lazylivin]

I used IO for about 10 years without Cynao problems. At least none that I can recall. Maybe just lucky but I don't think their are any nitrates or phosphates in it. Use Tunze salt currently. Here are a couple of RC TOTM that use Instant Ocean. This doesn't really prove or disprove anything other then some are very successful with IO.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-11/totm/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-01/totm/index.php
http://www.reefcentral.com/totm/2001-08/index.php

[Joel]

If a person is having an algae issue, cyano or otherwise, it is not because they used Instant Ocean salt. It's more typically a hardware or husbandry issue.

Instant Ocean does NOT contain Phosphates or Nitrates, that is a completely false statement. If a persons test kit indicates that instant ocean does contain phosphates & nitrates, they probably don't have a quality test kit.

Excess nutrients are what most nuisance algae issues are fueled by, Better maintenance practices will cure outbreaks. Cleaning and adjusting protein skimmer several times per week is helpful & often not being done. Assuming a person has a good protein skimmer and it's adjusted properly, it should need cleaned several times per week.

Increasing water flow can help with preventing localized pockets of nutrients that can trigger cyano. In other words, keeping matter suspended to be trapped by filtering media or removed by skimming prevents pockets of organic matter that will feed algae.

Elevated ORP levels seem to deter cyano. This may be due to aggressive oxidation of organic matter through ozone injection but it works very well.

Using "chemicals" to treat cyano is not sound responsible advise either. Not only do these products kill desirable organisms but they only treat the symptom. If you don't correct what aloud the algae to be there in the first place, it'll be back again. Plus killing the cyano releases the nutrients it had banked in it's tissue, you just re-released what you don't want in your tank! These significantly over priced products are just erythromycin, if you have a situation where you feel you need to kill cyano, you can buy Mardel's Fresh Water Maracyn for a ton cheaper and have the same results, a small pack is like 6 or 7 bucks.

I have to coment on this; A quote from Techguy "I use Kent, do a weekly 20G water change, and only rarely dose Ca. I hated IO!" Here's a little industry secret for you. Instant Ocean and Kent marine Salt are virtually identical. Aquarium Systems & Kent Marine buy the raw materials to make their salt from the same company. Both Aquarium Systems and Kent marine are owned by the same company, Central Pet. Just humorous to me that you bash one and rave the other when they are the same product with a different label.

Instant Ocean does have it's shortcomings for many with reef aquariums but these are easily compensated for with the addition of carbonite, calcium & mag supplements. Instant Ocean is perfectly fine as is for many aquariums, especially fish tanks and non stony coral type "reef" aquariums. I've used instant ocean for over 20 years and have had only 1 time where it had a problem which aquarium systems admitted to there being a problem with that batch. That's a pretty good track record.

Anyway, look else where for algae problem, don't blame the salt...

Joel

[micki]

IO has always worked fine for me...

[chromiumlux]

I use Kent salt and I must say I am pleased with it.

[TechGuy]

I have to coment on this; A quote from Techguy "I use Kent, do a weekly 20G water change, and only rarely dose Ca. I hated IO!" Here's a little industry secret for you. Instant Ocean and Kent marine Salt are virtually identical. Aquarium Systems & Kent Marine buy the raw materials to make their salt from the same company. Both Aquarium Systems and Kent marine are owned by the same company, Central Pet. Just humorous to me that you bash one and rave the other when they are the same product with a different label.

Instant Ocean does have it's shortcomings for many with reef aquariums but these are easily compensated for with the addition of carbonite, calcium & mag supplements. Instant Ocean is perfectly fine as is for many aquariums, especially fish tanks and non stony coral type "reef" aquariums. I've used instant ocean for over 20 years and have had only 1 time where it had a problem which aquarium systems admitted to there being a problem with that batch. That's a pretty good track record.

Anyway, look else where for algae problem, don't blame the salt...

Joel

I understand you may have experience and I respect that. Others may respect that, and thats fine.

But they ARE NOT the same salt. Period. Anyone with half a brain who has used both knows better. Not only that, but right here in this very forum is a salt comparison posted. Clearly not the same salt, its ridiculous to say they are.

IO Never mixed clean for me. It was a pain to mix also. Sticking to the bottom. It never mixed consistently either. Sometimes 10 cups did the trick, other times 15. Thats not quality, thats crap.

What I find "humorous" is that all over this forum the general consensus is that you get what you pay for. Well, it also applies to IO.

I challenge all of you IO users to make the switch to Kent (which wasn't even a part of this discussion until your post). Give it a try.

When I switched I immediately noticed a difference.

The slime remover is simply and antibiotic. You are right, it will release nutrients into the water. But as I stated, it works fine if you follow the directions. They clearly state to remove as much of the cyano as possible. You probably shouldn't use it unless you really need to. Your right, look at the source. Which could possibly be your salt, adding fuel to the fire.

[harleyrider]

whats  the differents in price everybody talks about i get I/O for 44.95 for 200 gallons i thought kent was higher than that!! No problem with I/O at all easy to mix, disolves very quickly and clean, no nitrate or any other bad readings with it ever!!!!

[~reefchik~]

I've cycled quite a few tanks, and never had cyano this quickly.  But then again, I would still tend to blame this rock I got from the neighbor faster than the IO.  I wanted to ask the question because I see a lot of discussion along these lines at other reef forums.

I did get the newer version called Reef Crystals (which, btw, didn't that used to be made by a different company?)

I'm getting a handle on it, pulling it out when I can, and blowing water across areas on the sand.  The refugium is getting pretty maroon, too.  And the skimmer ought to help too.  I also have some Salifert test kits coming soon, and I want to test my IO water after changing the cartridges, and then test the new saltwater I'm storing, and compare them to the tank water.  (PO4)

And while we're at it, how do you test for TDS coming out of your RO system?  I suspect my membrane is done for.

[harleyrider]

if your r/o is shot that will cause your problem!

[jeremyt]

And while we're at it, how do you test for TDS coming out of your RO system?  I suspect my membrane is done for.

tds meter

http://www.buckeyefieldsupply.com/Meters-c42.html

[Reefd Up]

Lazy & Reefchik - there are some threads out with some people that have been able to rid their tanks of cyano by dosing Vitamin C (Brian, I'm still trying to find you those other threads.)  I don't know why VC would work when other carbon-dosing methods wouldn't...but anyway.  Just thought I'd mention it. 

[Reefd Up]

Oh, and if anyone cares, (I didn't know this), cyano has been linked to BBD (black band disease) in the Caribbean.

[~reefchik~]

if your r/o is shot that will cause your problem!

I actually considered buying a whole new RODI system, they aren't that expensive.  I have two new cartridges in place and two more new ones on the shelf.  And then Joe reminded me that you can never let a membrane dry out.  Oops.  I'm pretty sure this one did last time we moved, and I had no idea.  So now do I get a new membrane for what, about $60-70 and still not have DI water, or maybe bite the bullet and get a new system.  

[~reefchik~]

Thanks for the info, Nikki.  I didn't know that about Vit C or black band disease. 

Jeremy thanks for the link to the meter.  Not expensive, that's a good thing 

[Reefd Up]

I actually considered buying a whole new RODI system, they aren't that expensive.  I have two new cartridges in place and two more new ones on the shelf.  And then Joe reminded me that you can never let a membrane dry out.  Oops.  I'm pretty sure this one did last time we moved, and I had no idea.  So now do I get a new membrane for what, about $60-70 and still not have DI water, or maybe bite the bullet and get a new system. 

If you need a new membrane...and don't have a DI chamber, I'd just go ahead and buy a new system.  A new membrane plus, what...say $30 for a DI chamber...and you're pretty much to the cost of a new system with everything included.  I bought a used system to start...and I've been troubleshooting it for 2 years now.  No matter what, I can't get below 12 TDS...so I'm pretty sure the membrane section is letting water bypass it slightly.  Ugh.  It's just not worth the hassle to know your water is good.

Like Joel talked about earlier, I'd definitely try to find the root cause of the problem.  If you're this concerned about your RO unit, I'd bet money that's where the problem is.  I'm sure someone local can let you borrow a TDS meter just to get an idea of your water quality.

Until you can get your RO situation fixed, maybe try purchasing your water from a LFS or club member.  Just a thought. 

[harleyrider]

i have read numerous post on the net about cyano, and probly 99 percent were related to bad tap water, and or bad R/O water and reported when changed the problem cleared up on its on within a 2-3 day period, nothing was said about salt being bad, if you do your research you will find, that most of the brands of salt are the same, just some add things like cal, or trace ele. but salt alone is the same..

[jeremyt]

if you just add half i.o. and half oceanic it turns out to be a great mix. also mixes great for me but that may be because i use a 660gph pump for 15 gallons.

[~reefchik~]

RSCP?

[jeremyt]

RSCP?

red sea coral pro salt

[jeremyt]

The pump could have something to do with it

But mixing two salts is just a pain in the rear. Get a real salt to begin with, and save the trouble

its easy just 2 scoops of one 2 scoops of the other then a scoop of 50/50 and presto  perfect alk/mag/cal

[Wall_Tank]

To each his own.

Buy a salt
Mix to the desired salinity
Test each bucket or batch of the salt
Adjust params to your hearts desire.

[~reefchik~]

red sea coral pro salt

Thanks.  I should have been able to recall, but it's been a while.  You don't see it sold a lot of places around here, either.  I guess a lot of people think that's the best?  That and Kent?

[Reefd Up]

I think you'll find a different answer as to what salt is the best from pretty much every person.  Plus, someone might consider X salt the best, but use Y salt because of the price or availability. 

[~reefchik~]

LOL, Nikki....guess that's like a lot of things in life.

[Reefd Up]

Oh...another thing to consider is...

One month you'll have everyone raving about X salt and ranting about Y salt...and then the next month everyone is on to some other salt.  I'll admit, I've jumped on the bandwagon here and there.  I started with IO, tried Oceanic once, switched to Reef Crystals for quite a while, switched (for no reason) to RSCP for a while, kept using IO on my QT tank, and now I'm onto a mix of SeaChem and IO (they balance each other out well and has a low cost).  I'd say I vary salts about once every 6-10 months. 

I've only had one experience ever where I was deterred from a salt, and I'm not even 100% sure it was the salt.  So, I don't really have a favorite.  I do have to question those who change salts almost every month to go with the latest and greatest trend.  Stability is key with this hobby. 

[harleyrider]

Ill second that, if its not broke dont fix it!

[lazylivin]

Ill second that, if its not broke dont fix it!

That is what this guy says - I've used Instant Ocean salt from day one and since it's worked well for me, I haven't tried anything else because I feel that if it isn't broken, don't fix it!

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-01/totm/index.php

[~reefchik~]

That is an insanely gorgeous tank - wow.  I love his stand and canopy too.  Thanks for sharing that.

[jeremyt]

that monti he made with a bunch of frags turned out great.  looks amazing  

but i bet people have made some nuttier ones than that by now

[harleyrider]

Actually United Pet Group does exist. These companies are bought and sold all the time. I understand there are websites that tell you all kinds of information. There are also phone numbers on these websites, with real live people that you can talk too. http://www.unitedpetgroup.com/. And I never said that Central Pet made salt, just that Kent is a subsidary of Central Pet. I actually said Kent is an affiliate of Central Pet. As, far as the new up to date salt analysis goes, it does not do any of the salts anymore justice than the year prior.

Hers the number if you need it, or anyone else would like to talk to them 513-337-0600 formally (united pet group)

[slandis3]

OK leats please get this thread back on topic.

[slandis3]

ok i removed all the non related stuff in this thread. the op wanted to know if there was a direct link between Instant ocean and cyano. Not who owns what. I myself got caught up in the mix. So please keep this discussion about cyano and instant ocean salt.

[~reefchik~]

Well, at this point I'm blaming a couple things other than the salt for these issues. 

I got my phosphate test kit a few days ago, so that's happening today.  The macro algaes are going nuts in both the fuge and the display.  Bryopsis is coming back.  Hair algae (a very short variety, but still.... ) making a comeback on several rocks.  Nitrates seem to be hanging at 10 with water changes.  Cyano in sheets all across the back wall of the tank.  And black spots on the sand in a couple places without strong current.

I suspect it's a combo of using disturbed 3 yr old live sand, old abused rock (came with tank) and most likely filtered tap water, seeing's how my RO membrane is apparently dead. 

I had a bunch of medical stuff done last week, and now working on putting my business all into Quickbooks (huge undertaking OMG) and that's kept me off the streets and out of the forums    Time to set aside some tank time today for sure.   

[TechGuy]

Well, at this point I'm blaming a couple things other than the salt for these issues. 

I got my phosphate test kit a few days ago, so that's happening today.  The macro algaes are going nuts in both the fuge and the display.  Bryopsis is coming back.  Hair algae (a very short variety, but still.... ) making a comeback on several rocks.  Nitrates seem to be hanging at 10 with water changes.  Cyano in sheets all across the back wall of the tank.  And black spots on the sand in a couple places without strong current.

I suspect it's a combo of using disturbed 3 yr old live sand, old abused rock (came with tank) and most likely filtered tap water, seeing's how my RO membrane is apparently dead. 

I had a bunch of medical stuff done last week, and now working on putting my business all into Quickbooks (huge undertaking OMG) and that's kept me off the streets and out of the forums    Time to set aside some tank time today for sure.   

What is your TDS?

[~reefchik~]

What is your TDS?

No clue. 

[TechGuy]

No clue. 

LOL. Thats a good place to start!

[~reefchik~]

Test results:

PO4:  0.02 to 0.03 (almost undetectable color change)
No3:  less than 5 mg/L
CA:  440
pH: 8.2

I guess what phosphates and nitrates there *were* are now bound in the macroalgae? 
What the heck is causing the cyano to flourish then?

Also every one of my turbos died within a few days of each other.  Are they known to be sensitive to changes in CA or alkalinity?  The only big change that week was adding the skimmer. 

 

[harleyrider]

fix your R/O problem and you will fix your tanks problem!

[rmstevensiii]

It sounds like you're using old rock, and 3 yr old sand, which was disturbed during the tank move.  Either, or both could be leaching back into your tank.  Some you can test for, and some you cannot.  IMO, you should stay on top of the water changes, and physically remove all of the algae that you can until things stabilize.  I personally, do not believe that it's a source water problem.  My tanks both run on on tap water with no skimmer.  (Not the preferred method, but to each his/her own.  Your mileage may vary.)  The last time I tested, my TDS at the tap was close to 800.  I suspect that your probs are related to the the rock/sand from the old system....not your choice of salt.

My .02

[~reefchik~]

It sounds like you're using old rock, and 3 yr old sand, which was disturbed during the tank move.  Either, or both could be leaching back into your tank.  Some you can test for, and some you cannot.  IMO, you should stay on top of the water changes, and physically remove all of the algae that you can until things stabilize.  I personally, do not believe that it's a source water problem.  My tanks both run on on tap water with no skimmer.  (Not the preferred method, but to each his/her own.  Your mileage may vary.)  The last time I tested, my TDS at the tap was close to 800.  I suspect that your probs are related to the the rock/sand from the old system....not your choice of salt.

My .02

I think I agree with you.

Although I'm not willing to go back to tap water (LOL, that's probably essentially what I'm using anyway), I ran a really nice 55 gallon reef tank skimmerless with tap water years ago when I was too broke to buy any fancy equipment.   I still have photos of the nice corals in that tank!   

Now my challenge is to get a new membrane or a whole new RO or RO/DI system by say, tonight or tomorrow.   I'm tired of waiting, and I do believe the ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  This algae and cyano isn't going away magically by itself, that's for sure.