Ohio Reef
Reef Discussion => Water Chemistry => Topic started by: lazylivin on August 07, 2012, 11:37:46
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This topic peaked my curiousty http://www.ohioreef.com/index.php?topic=14315.0 (http://www.ohioreef.com/index.php?topic=14315.0)
Why do some have trouble with nitrates? I am not able to ever have a detectable level yet phosphates are always a battle. Do you think that some bacteria strains eat nitrates and not phosphates or vice versa?
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Each bacteria "strain" only eats one nutrient or the other... They are not interchangeable...
Though we dont have to "purposely" introduce them into our tank, doing so can boost their diversity as there are several strains capable of doing the same job.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrifying_bacteria)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphate_solubilizing_bacteria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphate_solubilizing_bacteria)
Unless you have a bacteria to convert nitrates into nitrogen; it will remain in the water column(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrifying_bacteria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrifying_bacteria))... nitrate consuming baccteria requires anaerobic conditions to survive... I think most that have nitrate issues don't have this proper anaerobic setup.
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I need to get some phosphate consuming bacteria.
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personally, I think the key to phosphates is a DSB.
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This I why I love this hobby. It is beautifully complex & always interesting.
If Only there was a way to test for & introduce missing bacteria. On a hobby level. Then we would. E able to dose strands as needed. No more high phates or trites.
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You can test, by running a petri sample disk just like the one listed in the phosphate description. You can also examine solid samples from your tank with a microscope.
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To be honest, following agriculture and their "breakthroughs", Helps us in the long run as they are so closely related, and the agriculture industry sees way more funding as support than we do, so they usually have the tech and science first but can easily be applied to our world.
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I will try to get a hold of Dr. Tim to see if he has phosphate consuming bacteria. Paul how deep does DSB need to be you think to work. Also how big of an area? Does DSB not work for nitrates? I ask becauyour recall you doing carbon dosing fyeas couple years and had a DSB.
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a DSB works for Nitrates, as it offers an anerobic enviroment(at the correct depth and grain size; usually 3-6"+ in depth) for the Denitrifying bacteria to survive.
DSB if done incorrectly can be a huge headache though, and can cause more harm than good, never disturb a settled DSB, and always choose the correct grain size and depth. Other wise it will become a nitrate/detritus facatory...
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Isn't the purpose of DSB to be a nitrate factory? Just saying
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Doesn't the biopellets work for both nitrates and phosphates? I have a deep sand bed in my fuge which seems to be working well. Have not been able to detect nitrates or phosphates with test kits. Of course, my tank is a bit bare right now. We can all agree that most phosphate is locked up in macro algae that we keep. However, it seems that when my tank was loaded, I always had nuisance algae of some sort. My reason for the biopellet research is to help control both NoPo from feedings which are the main import of phosphate tyo a closed system.
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Isn't the purpose of DSB to be a nitrate factory? Just saying
A *De*nitrifying factory not a nitrate... you want it making nitrogen not nitrates. A dsb allows the anerobic bacteria an enviroment to survive so they can convert your harmful nitrates in harmless nitrogen gas.....
Factories are known by what they produce not what they consume.... Car factory(not a plastic,steel, rubber factory) ;P
Nitrates are formed from Nitrifying bacteria(minus the De)... they break ammonia down into nitrates... you then need De_nitrifying bacteria to break down the nitrates into nitrogen.... Thats where a DSB comes in, as the De-nitrifying baceteria thrives in low oxygen
You dont want a nitrate factory lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrifying_bacteria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrifying_bacteria)
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anybody running a RDSB (remote deep sand bed) ?? any thoughts ? thinking of going BB on new tank or a sand resin bed. then tying a RDSB in.
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I would not run a DSB in my display.....to much risk of it becoming dirty. I currently have my DSB in my sump. I could easily remove it if it becomes dirty.
A RDSB in a 5 gallon bucket, fed with clean water, and kept clean seems to be the best way.
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That was interesting wiki Cody. I hadn't know that about DSB.
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Doesn't the biopellets work for both nitrates and phosphates? I have a deep sand bed in my fuge which seems to be working well. Have not been able to detect nitrates or phosphates with test kits. Of course, my tank is a bit bare right now. We can all agree that most phosphate is locked up in macro algae that we keep. However, it seems that when my tank was loaded, I always had nuisance algae of some sort. My reason for the biopellet research is to help control both NoPo from feedings which are the main import of phosphate tyo a closed system.
Biopellets and other forms of carbon dosing produce bacteria that consume both nitrate and phosphate along with carbon and iron. Some suggest the consumption follows the "improved" Redfield Ratio (C:N:P:Fe = 106:16:1:0.01) but the actual ratio is dependent on the bacterial strain. Regardless, biopellets do consume phosphate but typically ~1/20th the rate of nitrate reduction. If there is no nitrate, then phosphate cannot be reduced using biopellets.
A common situation is to have no nitrate and detectable phosphate. This is because nitrate reduction occurs readily in the home aquarium whereas phosphate reduction is less prevelant. We also add lots of phosphate with the foods we add. In the case of no nitrate and detectable phosphate, biopellets, c-dosing, or algae will not help to reduce phosphates. Your solutions are to introduce a nitrogen source absent a phosphate source (like amino acid dosing), completing phosphate free water changes, adding GFO, or growing cyanobacteria somewhere. Cyanobacteria can fix nitrogen directly so can operate and sometimes flourish in enivornments of low nitrate but high phosphate.
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That would explain the cynao in the tank.