Advice on Cyano

[lazylivin]

Looking for some recommendations on Cynao Bacteria. I don't have a lot of it however it is irritating the corals quite a bit. Not sure how to get rid of it because all the classic reasons for having an outbreak are not present.

Phosphates are .02 on Hanna digital meter
Flow is 6000GPH between the two tanks
Lighting is 600w on the 55gallon and 400w on the 33 gallon sharing a common sump with 100w
Tank temperature runs 78.5 - 80.0

I was thinking it could be caused by the recent tank events and coral losses due to Alk drop however starting to wonder if the cynao bacteria contributed to the losses.

Nitrates, Nitrates and Ammonia are 0
Calcium and Alk and Mag are fine as well but the dosage amounts to keep them at the correct level are out of wack . Usually dose the same amount of Alk and Ca however Ca consumption is less so having to dose half the amount. 100ML of Alk and 50ML of Ca. Guessing that is due to lack of growth?

Do you think I should just let it run its course or is a special treatment necessary? Any suggestions would be appreciated as I don't have any experience with this toxic bacteria.

[jd]

Brian,

I had a pretty bad outbreak a few weeks ago that has recently died down. I've got about 1500gph in a 29 gallon tank.
Here's what I did:

Started skimming wetter.

Moved power heads to the areas where it was flaring up.

Once every other day I would use a length of ridged airline with some airline on it to make a mini gravel vacuum. This worked great for removing it around my coral without disturbing them and off my rock. I simply ran the airline into a sock and put it in my sump to catch the cyano. This allows you to take your time removing it with out having to mix up new water.

Edit: I would usually leave the sock in my sump for a few days. My return flowed into it also so it had water movement. I don't know if that helped or hurt but it allowed the cyano to grow and take up nutrients without me having to look at it.

Edit: I did a few days of with my light off, but I don't know how much that helps. I've heard both ways on cyano that it is and isn't photosynthetic. The lights out did clear up my water nicely. I did LIGHTS OUT, as in a blanket wrapped around the tank for 2 days, indirect sunlight for a day, then tank light back on.

Wait it out! It will subside, you have much better reef keeping practices than I!

[lazylivin]

Thanks for the advice JD. Especially on the skimming wet, I will make that change right away.

[jd]

Welcome Brian. I made some edits above. Best advice is to wait it out. Good luck, I know how annoying it is.

[rayviv]

http://reefblog.unrulymck.com/?p=412

[UDJustin]

like was stated before move power heads to create movement where the cyano is, it doesnt like heavy water movement. Try and remove as much as you can by hand(turkey baster, fine net). I also had just read that it has been reported tanks with out a DSB or RDSB seem to get cyano outbreaks more than tanks with them so if you dont have one you may try that also

[TechGuy]

Cyano needs phophates to live, it does not need nitrate. Atleast not in the form you are testing for. Your phospates may test zero, but only because its being absorbed as fast as it is released. Don't scrub the rocks. You need to remove the cyano from the tank, or it just becomes fuel for the next round.

I tryed everything to get rid of it. I used airline, and rigid tubing to suck it off the sand and rocks. I cut my light cycle, increased the time I run my phophate reactor, increased my temp and PH. It always came back, day after day.

Justin sold me "Red Slime Remover". You have to turn off your skimmer for 5 days. But it never came back. In 5 days I fired the skimmer back up, and everything has been great.

I never liked the idea of useing chemicals, but this stuff works.

[Reefd Up]

Brian, if you dig through RC on the SPS forum you'll find many people in the same situation...high flow, low phosphates, etc.  Usually it was the people with the best maintenance on their tanks.  Last I heard, there was never a solution found other than to wait it out/lights out/etc.  No one seemed to find a reason for it existing.  I know there is a person on this forum that went through the same thing (and is more meticulous with his tank than I am...) but I won't call him out.  Maybe he'll chime in. 

I'd avoid the slime removers since they target bacteria.  They won't just kill the cyano...they kill beneficial bacteria at the same time.  Granted...sometimes losing some good bacteria is worth losing the bad.

[rayviv]

From some dude 'down under' in Aussie land.

Rowaphos for cyanobacteria; sponge or crushed.

Depends on the filter, but you cant go far wrong with Rowaphos. You can buy it as a sponge for several external filter types or loose for all the other types of filter. The loose stuff you put some in a filter sock, rinse the dust off then place in your filter.

 www.melevsreef.com/ chemicals.html

[jd]

I've seen both my strombus conchs eat cyano, unfortunately they never venture up onto my rock work.

[TechGuy]

I'd avoid the slime removers since they target bacteria.  They won't just kill the cyano...they kill beneficial bacteria at the same time.  Granted...sometimes losing some good bacteria is worth losing the bad.

You would think so right? But my tank never went thru a mini cycle, or registered nitrates. Follow the directions and you will be fine. They aren't selling a product thats going to kill your beneficial bacteria.

Check on Melvs Reef. Everyone seems to listen to him, he recomends it. I Gaurantee it will kill the Cyano, and your tank will be fine.

[Aquatic Specialists]

Skimming is the only true way to really rid your tank of cyano, but of course that is a long process. Of course siphoning, wiping, turning the lights out (very unerving  ) and of course the dreaded wait. It will eventually subside, but you have to keep it in check while your waiting. Obviously, it can be harmful to your inhabitants. It can cover their polyps, not letting them feed and also not letting them photosynthesize. It will also blanket the rock and sand bed not letting your beneficial bacteria work properly (letting nitrogen escape into the atmosphere). So if it gets down too it use the red slime control by Blue Life, it is non-toxic and reef safe, only use it if needed! It does work really well. But as Reefd' up said it does target bacteria, but if the cyano is blanketing your tank, and you use the proper dosage, it will really only be able to kill the cyano with minimal beneficial bacteria loss. Red Slime Control is for extreme cases, but in most cases I have found that it will not come back. 

[jd]

A agree with Justin. The reason I had my outbreak was because I has left my skimmer off while I was away on vacation for 5 days.

[~reefchik~]

I used the Red Slime Remover once too, because I'd tried everything else with no joy.
It really does work, and I had no problems with nitrates or nitrites as a result.  Just a nice clean tank. 

[harleyrider]

If you google saltwater cyano, there is a lot of info on it, with causes and cures, from people that has lifetime of experince with testing cyano, some good reading, might help you!!

[Wall_Tank]

Flow, Flow and more flow.

On a daily basis suck up as much as you can get, and put down the drain.   Then blow off anything you didn't suck up.   Also take a look in the bottom of your overflow and also the bottom of your sump.....get it clean.   I never had to resort to darkness.   

[Aquatic Specialists]

Somthing else you can try: Sea Hare, if you do not have alot of hair algae they will eat the cyano. And the Sand Sifting Conch, 1/ 25gallon these guys do an amazing job rock or sand, they are work horses. They eat all kinds of algaes/photosynthetic bacteria. Plus they keep the sand stirred where the cyano likes to grow. Try a couple  .

[Reefd Up]

Brian...I'm telling you...there's a different strain of cyano out there that doesn't respond to the typical treatments.  I've seen your setup...know your perfectionism...I don't think the typical methods will help.  Check out RC...there's a lot of people in your boat. 

[lazylivin]

Hey all thanks a bunch for all the suggestions. You all seem very knowledgeable on this stuff and it seems consistent with the little reading I have done so far. There are a few common ideas mentioned consistently here that I am going to try right away.
Add more flow
Add filter sock and change daily
Siphon and brush it off often wherever possible
Wetter Skimming
Do more research on it, Google and RC
I will do all of the above and wait/see.

Nikki with my luck recently I probably have that bad strain. If you happen to come across those RC threads please send to me. I will definitely look on RC and Google to see what more I can learn about this dreadful bacteria.
 
Red Slime Remover – Tempting because of the quick results but not quite ready to try just yet. I actually bought some API Erythromycin Powder Packets Thursday but never used it. A little bit scary.

[chromiumlux]

Brian,
One experience I've had with our little 3.5 billion year old bacterium is that certain forms of cyano can be fueled by Hydrogen sulfide. I had issues with my 14 gallon biocube a while back with several peices of live rock that would not stop growing cyano algea and did some research. Two areas that I did not give thought to were the DSB and my rock. I inspected my sand bed--It was in good shape. I decided to experiment with a piece of LR that had what appeared to be --upon close inspection--a band of black running along the underside. Cracked it open and there it was. A black deposit of HS. Smelled bad. Did not notice it after I cured the rock, but I remember the smell during the curing process. Ended up removing all of that rock and reducing it to rock rubble.

[JP2006]

I have areas of black in my DSB. I was told it is natural, but after reading this, could it be HS?

[lazylivin]

Andy, That may explain what spawned/fuled the cynao out break a bit. I removed the 90 on my return line so you could not see it in the tank. Thought it was pretty clever but with the water blowing straight down it did create a little sand storm. Maybe the bacteria came from the disturbed sand bed.

Here is some pictures of the change.

Previously



Currently




There is only one small spot that has cynao in the display tank. I added a maxijet last night to that spot and it has blown it all away. Hopefully caught in the filter sock added to the overflow.

Picture of the temporary maxijet



One thing to add, 95% or more of the cyno is in the propagation tank. That tank is sharing water with the display through a common sump. The weird thing is there is an incredible amount of flow in that tank. (118 x turnover). double the display (55x turnover). The other weird thing is that is were the protein skimmer is. Not very effective skimming for the display but definitely good for the prop tank. The other difference is the prop tank only gets 6 hours of light vs the display getting 8 hours.

My plan to deal with this if not gone after the CORA swap is to drain the prop tank and let it dry out. Since there is no biological filtration in that tank should be fine. Need to do a few reconfigurations with that it anyway.

[jd]

Brian: The cyano in my tank began shortly after I added my new K3s. This stirred my sandbed up pretty bad. This, in combination with my week without skimming, is likely the cause of my outbreak.

[~reefchik~]

Thread crap:  Lazy, that's a nice looking tank!

[Wall_Tank]

Thread crap:  Lazy, that's a nice looking tank!

You would think that a thread talking about a cyno problem, we'ed see some cyno.........The tank looks nice the power head will know it down.   How about a shot of the frag tank where the problem is.

[lazylivin]

Thanks for everyone's advice with the Cyano, happy to report that it is going away. 

I Added more flow, filter sock and changed daily (PIA......poor sump configuration not easy to get to), Siphoned and brushed it off wherever possible (PIA......used a tooth brush, zoo's did not like that to much but better now) and wetter Skimming.....overflowed it the first night 

It was worth it, hopefully continues to dissipate.

I will post up a couple of pics showing the cynao, just been lazy if you can believe that. 

[Baggerhog]

Have you checked the color spectrum on the lights over your frag tank. I dont see where anyone has mentioned the lights themselves. I notice a change in my system as my bulbs age.

[lazylivin]

I was running a brand new Coralvue 14k for the past month decided I did not like the look and switched to a new Radium last week.

[harleyrider]

Have you checked the color spectrum on the lights over your frag tank. I dont see where anyone has mentioned the lights themselves. I notice a change in my system as my bulbs age.

If you goggle that , that is a big cause they say as the bulbs age, or changin from old to new can also cause it!

[jd]

Lazy: How is the outbreak? Have you tired lights out for a few days?

[lazylivin]

The cynao outbreak did occur before changing the bulbs. I have not yet tried doing a lights out yet. It seem to be going away but was afraid doing the lights out it would die to quick and release to much toxin to quick in the water column and with a average skimmer may not be the best approach. Still considering draining and cleaning the tank after the swap. Need to rework the plumbing and kill off some bryosis algae anyway.

[Reefd Up]

Lazy, have you looked into magnesium treatment for byropsis?

[lazylivin]

I did do a treatment for Dinoflagellates about three months ago running Mag at 1500-1550 for about 30 days. It took care of the dino and  bryopsis. Looking back that was unexpected and never put two and two together until reading your post just now.

The bryopsis that is currently in the frag tank came from DR Fosters and Smith frag about 1 month ago. Cant believe how fast it has grown and lucky it did not make it to the display. At least not that shows anywhere yet...... Good to know that if it does I can elevate the mag levels again because manual removal is difficult.

Come to thing of it, the turf algae is gone as well, wonder if Mag levels took care of that to?

Also have since nice green and red bubble algae. It does not bother me to much because blends in with the purple/red rocks. Kind of cool looking and easy manual removal. I like to pop them.... Whoaaaa don't know where that came from, just blurted it out. Some nice aloe stuff comes out to moisturize the hands.   come on now you all cant tell my you dont pop your bubble algae to see what is inside. You just cant help it is like trying to hold bubble wrap in your hand and not pop it.  

BTW: There was no ill effects that I could see from the short increase in levels.

Lazy, have you looked into magnesium treatment for byropsis?

[Reefd Up]

If you need it, I'll dig up the tests on RC with Mag & byropsis.  Last I was reading, there was a debate over whether it was the magnesium chloride or the magnesium sulfate that was doing it.  Dosing Tech-M is proven to work, but requires a lot of it...which gets expensive.  I think it was the Mag Sulfate that ended up winning last I read (which is I think the main ingredient on Tech-M...and is Epsom Salts...very cheap!)  But, you also need to worry about the levels of sulfates in your aquarium (which is why you're supposed to dose the mag chloride with it...I think it forms some form of chlor-sulf- (don't know if it's an -ide or an -ate).  That form is fairly inert if I remember correctly.

Anywho, I never realized just how...rambly...my thoughts are.  Sorry! 

[lazylivin]

If you come across the articles again send it my way. Sounds like a interesting read.

[Reefd Up]

It's like...30 million pages...but...I'll see what I can find.

[Reefd Up]

Ok, so...only 40 pages...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1113109&perpage=25&highlight=seattle&pagenumber=1

[lazylivin]

It's like...30 million pages

All the good ones are. Thanks for the link.