Phosphates

[oldschoolcoupe]

I think I'm having a problem with phosphates. I can't find the cause. API test kits indicates zero, I don't believe that. I don't have any other way to check. I use RO/DI water that is 4-6 TDS, never can get it to zero for some reason. I have battling HA for a while. 20% water changes twice a week for 8 weeks and still no improvements, actually getting worse. I also have cyano, I think, that I treated with red slime remover with no results. Also tried a 3 day blackout. This goes away at night, then reappears after the lights come back on. I'm getting frustrated. I am thinking of either using phosphate RX or ROWAphos or both. I'm tired of throwing money at this tank. It is a JBJ nano cube. I run carbon, poly filter, and purigen. I do have a small amount of cheato with a light on it in the rear compartment. Any input is greatly appreciated.

[Kenn]

WOW, sorry to hear you're having so much trouble. I would NOT add anything until you confirm you have a phosphate problem.

I would suggest you believe your test kit at the moment unless it is old and out of date.

Lets get some info from ya.

what are your tank inhabitants? what do you feed and how often?

what kind of lighting do you have and how long do you run you lights?

What do you use for water movement?

This really sounds like you have an over abundance of nutrients in the water in my opinion.

Just take a deep breath

[Kenn]

Also.. If you haven't taken a peek at this post I would highly recommend it.

Lots of good info

http://www.ohioreef.com/index.php?topic=14117.0

[oldschoolcoupe]

I have 1 clown, 1 lawn mower blenny, 1 peppermint shrimp, 1 emerald crab and a CUC. I feed every other day a mixture of shrimp, scallop,mysis, pellet food, and spiralina that I made up and froze. The amount is about the size of my pinky finger nail around and 3/16 of an inch thick (give or take). Movement consists of standard pumps on wave maker and 2 koralia power heads 1-240 and 1-420. I also have an air driven skimmer. Lights are stock LED's white that are on 8 hours daily and the blues are on 12 hours daily.

[oldschoolcoupe]

pics

[oldschoolcoupe]

My best guess is that phosphates are leaching out from my rock. I used dry rock and dry sand, I rinsed the sand. I have read that dry rock will leach out phosphates after a while. Does anybody think "cooking" the rock will help? I do have large totes I use to store RO/DI and saltwater that I could use to cook the rock, but I'm not sure how to do this. I'm sure I can find out how with a search. I just don't know what to do next.

[Miles]

It makes sense that your phosphate test kit is reading zero. Phosphates are a tricky thing... there are two types in your tank; Soluble Reactive Phosphates (SRP) and Organic Phosphates. SRP is what is freely avaliable in the water, while Organic Phosphates are what are locked in the live rock. A phosphate test kit can only test for SRP, and SRP is the only thing that algae can use to grow. So if you have a lot of algae your SRP level is probably going to be zero on your test kit because the algae is consuming it at the rate it is being produced.

The SRP can come from a number of places, the two most likely are from food and Organic Phosphate leaching from the rock which then becomes SRP.

I'm not sure if "cooking" live rock actually lowers Organic Phosphate levels (since hobbyists don't have the equipment to test for it), ideally you would want to boost bacterial growth in your tank to solve the problem (many would argue that cooking rock only makes a better home for bacteria..). Bacteria reproduces at a faster rate than algae, so if you are able to quickly boost bacterial production you can out compete the algae. This is usually accomplished through some sort of carbon dosing. Bacteria is able to access the organic phosphates in the rock and should eventually deplete it, but will always consume SRP before going after whats in the rock.

If you decide to go the carbon dosing route, make sure to clean out as much algae as possible (scrubbing the rock is probably a good idea), bacteria will out compete algae only if it can get a good foothold, it needs a head start . Bacteria also won't kill algae, so it needs to be able to consume most of the phosphate/nitrogen/carbon in the system in order to starve out the algae.

Hope this helps.

[oldschoolcoupe]

I've read about this before and was leary of doing it because of the little room for error. Would you use 80 proof (40% alcohol) vodka from the liquor store, or is there something availabe at the LFS that would be more forgiving? Also, would you recomend dosing some sort of beneficial bacteria while doing this? Is carbon dosing something you do for a while then stop or is it a continual thing? I like the idea of promoting a healthier tank than throwing chemicals at it in attemp to mask a problem. Thanks again for the advise.

[Miles]

I've never actually done vodka dosing, I used to run biopellets. They cleared up a bad algae problem that I used to have in my old tank (about 4 years ago). I'm not sure what the general consensus on biopellets is these days... I know Mr. SaltwaterTank no longer endorses them (for what that is worth), but Marc Levenson still uses them (http://melevsreef.com/articles/biopellets) .

There are a few different ways of doing carbon dosing, but I haven't looked into it for a while, so I don't really  know what out there. But Biopellets are probably the cheapest ( and easiest) method that doesn't involve pouring vodka or vinegar into your tank on a daily basis.

[oldschoolcoupe]

Anyone ever use Red Sea NOPOX for carbon dosing? I think I'm going to try the NOPOX. The threads I have found also recomend dosing reef energy A&B along wih the NOPOX. I am trying to be patient with this, but I'm reaching my limit with this.

[Keith92]

I have used vodka which lowered Nitrates but had little affect on PO4. I also used Lanthanum Chloride which had a positive effect short term but then the PO4 would rise again.  I just got a dual reactor from BRS for Carbon and GFO but I have not set it up. Good Luck.  It's not a fun battle

[oldschoolcoupe]

I've read so much that I don't know which way to go. I had some fluvial clearmax I put in and a new poly filter to start lowering the PO4. I don't know whether to carbon dose, get a reactor and run GFO or phosban, or lanthanum chloride. I figured I'd start with what I have on hand. I lean towards one and then change my mind. I need to keep telling myself that this is not an overnight fix.

[Wall_Tank]

Definitely not an overnight fix.  Very few things are in this hobby

Since this looks like hair algae, I would get a crew that likes to eat that stuff.   A Sea Hare is probably the biggest eater.  When they eat the algae, there will be less algae to consume the phosphates, plus the waste from what is eaten will become free floating again.   This will allows things like GFO to bind the phosphate.  Don't overuse the GFO (or whatever you decide)  As it will strip the water too clean.

As for boosting the bacteria.  I've always like the prodibio products, but they are pricey.   But I would wait to use any carbon dosing or bacterial boosters until you get control of the algae.  IF the PO4 becomes measurable in the water, you can always do a water change.

[NEWMAN]

If you don't have any coral incrusting on the rocks it would be easier and alot less headache to remove all rock from the nano and replace it with new since your dealing with a 28g. Doing this will be a instant fix and cheaper than all the carbon/phosphate media's you need to buy to treat this severe outbreak. This will not fix the cause of the problem though.

[oldschoolcoupe]

I changed out the rock that I thought was the problem. Things have improved and given me hope. I still have a way to go, the back wall is still covered in HA. I'm not sure if I should scrape it off or let it go away on its own. Thanks to everyone for the advise and encouragement. I'm still not sure what the stuff on the sand is. I thought it was cyano since it goes away at night. Red slime remover did. Nothing for it. Hopefully it will take care of itself.

[CoralBeauties]

I swear by using lanthanum chloride for phos removal.  I took my tank from a 180 gallon forest of green hair algae to none at all.  Very simple to use and cheap compared to gfo.  Do some reading on it.  I used it with my sps tank and saw no effect on the corals so I feel it is safe to use, just go slow with it.
jeff

[Topekoms]

I use lanthum myself love the stuff took my phosphates from .69 down to .18 in about a week still haven't dosed the full liter