pH test kit

[bkvreef]

I don't know what I've been thinking.  I realized last night that while I've been testing for Calcium, Alkalinity, Phosphate, nitrate, and magnesium,  I do not have a test kit for pH levels.

I am assuming I need to get one.  Any suggestions of where and what brand to get?

[Logzor]

Your best bet is getting a nice probe, reading the color chart may not be that helpful on a test kit for PH.

I never tested for PH for a year and a half and now that I have a probe I still see no reason for knowing my PH since it stays in the normal range anyways. If you are worried about PH getting too low, which is usually the case, I would suggest topping off with limewater. Unless your system is really screwy limewater and a reverse lit fuge should keep you PH in a normal swing which would be around 7.8 to 8.2 daily. Randy on reefcentral has some really good PH articles in the reef chemistry forum. I would check those out before you spend money or worry about your PH.

[bkvreef]

I have recently added a couple more corals (frags, like birds nest, montipora, sun coral)  My calcium and phosphate, alkalinity, nitrates, magnesium have all been pretty good numbers).  I did start adding limewater and have had my fuge light on opposite times (with some overlap) of my display.

[lazylivin]

If a PH probe is in your budget I highly recommend it as well.

[micki]

If a PH probe is in your budget I highly recommend it as well.

agreed! 

[bkvreef]

I am not sure I just looked on drfostersmith and there is a wide range in pricing.  The Hanna pH monitors were a Dr.'s choice and are the cheapest.  Any suggestions.
At $70 + those are possible but the $200 may be a little too much $

[lazylivin]

Yeah I agree that 200$ is way to much. That is close to the price of a controller.

[lazylivin]

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/PH/ORP/TDS-Monitors-&-Controller-PH-Pens/c66_118/p709/Pen-Type-PH-Meter/product_info.html

These are pretty handy. I bet our sponsors carry them so you don't have to pay shipping. If you get one don't forget the calibration fluid.

[bkvreef]

Thanks!
That is a whole lot more reasonable!

[Logzor]

I am not sure I just looked on drfostersmith and there is a wide range in pricing.  The Hanna pH monitors were a Dr.'s choice and are the cheapest.  Any suggestions.
At $70 + those are possible but the $200 may be a little too much $

Hold off on the PH probe and save up for a aquacontroller jr or another comparable controller and buy a PH probe with it. I highly highly doubt that knowing your PH level is so crucial that you can not wait.

Edit: I just saw that small ph meter, that is a pretty good buy. I still stand by the above suggestion, though. 

[Joel]

I'm really shocked at the amount of emphasis that has been made insinuating that not knowing you ph isn't a concern or important. It is one of the most basic (no pun intended) things to be testing for and very important to have correct & stable. Stability is very important, probably more important than specifically where the ph is as long as it's in the 8.3 range +/- a tenth.  The suggestion that an aquarium's ph fluctuating between 7.8 & 8.2 is normal and acceptable is ludicrous. That situation would be very stressful to most, of not all inhabitants and even lead to death in some. There are multiple situations that could cause this wild of a fluctuation but it is absolutely not an acceptable range of fluctuation. That radical of a ph swing indicates a major system flaw and that a major imbalance is occurring, most likely affiliated with excessive Co2. PH is a measure of hydrogen ions, the scale is logarithmic meaning each point value is a multiple of 10. For example, a ph fluctuation from 8.2 to 8.3 is a 10 point change in value, but a ph fluctuation from 8.2 to 8.4 is a 100 point change in value. 7.8 to 8.2 is a 100,000 point value in hydrogen concentration. That is a major stress generator!!!!

I don't disagree with the suggestion that a ph monitoring device can be a nice piece of equipment. They are very handy to test ph at a glance but I think additional information may be helpful in helping decide weather to buy one or not. First, a lot of reference has been made about getting a ph probe, the probe is just a piece of what you need, you need a monitoring device as well. Getting a quality probe is very important Cheap probes are not very accurate. Cleaning the probe at least monthly and re calibrating the probe & monitor monthly is very important. Even a high quality probe & monitor will give you faulty readings if you don't maintain it properly. The probe wears out too, replacing the probe every 6 to 8 months is about average. They run 50 to a little under 100 bucks depending on the quality. A monitor with a old, wore out probe is not useful or reliable.

Even if you decide to buy a ph monitor and probe, you still really need a good quality ph test kit such as salifert or aquarium systems. I have a few reasons for suggesting this, such as your aquarium isn't (or at least shouldn't be) the only water your testing your ph on. Examples would be pre-testing make up water, Testing new water for water changes, testing water for freshwater dips, testing the water of animals you just took home to determine the differences between their water and yours so you can evaluate the type and length of acclimation needed. Yes you could just take the probe from one body of water to the next but besides being inconvenient, probes take a while to settle and give an accurate reading and it is my belief that they should be re calibrated if going from one body of water to the next. If for no other reason you need a ph test kit to determine the accuracy of the probe & monitor. Most budget monitors are not sophisticated enough to determine if a probe can not be calibrated and even the ones that are, it still is a good practice to run a test to compare values. If you have nothing to compare to, how do you know it's testing correctly? (you don't) I have seen people put a lot of faith in these monitoring devises but put no effort into determining their accuracy or the age / condition of the probe only to have a negative out come.

Are you testing Ammonia, nitrite and nitrates? These are important as well.

[fishnuttoo]

how many people can actually keep their ph at 8.2-8.3?

iam just wondering....

mine is always 8.1-8.2 on a salifert test kit...

love your posts joel, nice to see a store owner on the boards so often.....

[Joel]

I think that if your 8.1-8.2 you are fine. That is a relatively narrow fluctuation in ph and is still with in what is considered to be an appropriate value. Again, an example of not specifically what the ph is but rather that it is pretty stable. I would personally prefer a slightly higher ph but if your ph is constantly in that range I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

What Alkalinity do you maintain? If your Alk is a little on the lower side, that may be part of the slightly lower ph. Typically (not always) an elevated alk level, approximately 4 - 5 milliequvelants per liter will maintain a ph of 8.2-8.4

[Logzor]

I'm really shocked at the amount of emphasis that has been made insinuating that not knowing you ph isn't a concern or important. It is one of the most basic (no pun intended) things to be testing for and very important to have correct & stable. Stability is very important, probably more important than specifically where the ph is as long as it's in the 8.3 range +/- a tenth.  The suggestion that an aquarium's ph fluctuating between 7.8 & 8.2 is normal and acceptable is ludicrous. That situation would be very stressful to most, of not all inhabitants and even lead to death in some. There are multiple situations that could cause this wild of a fluctuation but it is absolutely not an acceptable range of fluctuation. That radical of a ph swing indicates a major system flaw and that a major imbalance is occurring, most likely affiliated with excessive Co2. PH is a measure of hydrogen ions, the scale is logarithmic meaning each point value is a multiple of 10. For example, a ph fluctuation from 8.2 to 8.3 is a 10 point change in value, but a ph fluctuation from 8.2 to 8.4 is a 100 point change in value. 7.8 to 8.2 is a 100,000 point value in hydrogen concentration. That is a major stress generator!!!!

I don't disagree with the suggestion that a ph monitoring device can be a nice piece of equipment. They are very handy to test ph at a glance but I think additional information may be helpful in helping decide weather to buy one or not. First, a lot of reference has been made about getting a ph probe, the probe is just a piece of what you need, you need a monitoring device as well. Getting a quality probe is very important Cheap probes are not very accurate. Cleaning the probe at least monthly and re calibrating the probe & monitor monthly is very important. Even a high quality probe & monitor will give you faulty readings if you don't maintain it properly. The probe wears out too, replacing the probe every 6 to 8 months is about average. They run 50 to a little under 100 bucks depending on the quality. A monitor with a old, wore out probe is not useful or reliable.

Even if you decide to buy a ph monitor and probe, you still really need a good quality ph test kit such as salifert or aquarium systems. I have a few reasons for suggesting this, such as your aquarium isn't (or at least shouldn't be) the only water your testing your ph on. Examples would be pre-testing make up water, Testing new water for water changes, testing water for freshwater dips, testing the water of animals you just took home to determine the differences between their water and yours so you can evaluate the type and length of acclimation needed. Yes you could just take the probe from one body of water to the next but besides being inconvenient, probes take a while to settle and give an accurate reading and it is my belief that they should be re calibrated if going from one body of water to the next. If for no other reason you need a ph test kit to determine the accuracy of the probe & monitor. Most budget monitors are not sophisticated enough to determine if a probe can not be calibrated and even the ones that are, it still is a good practice to run a test to compare values. If you have nothing to compare to, how do you know it's testing correctly? (you don't) I have seen people put a lot of faith in these monitoring devises but put no effort into determining their accuracy or the age / condition of the probe only to have a negative out come.

Are you testing Ammonia, nitrite and nitrates? These are important as well.

A 24 hour fluctuation from 7.8 to 8.2 is nothing to worry about.  I am going to back up my statement with an article from reefkeeping magazine:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/rhf/index.php#3

This quote from it: "With that all said, however, I do not believe that the actual change in pH each day is particularly important. I won’t go into the reasoning behind this claim here, other than stating that it is my opinion, based on my understanding of how most organisms control their internal pH, but I do not believe that diurnal pH changes that stay within the range of pH 7.8 to 8.5 are particularly stressful to most reef organisms. That is, these changes are no more stressful than being at the same pH all day. A constant pH of 7.9 may be worse for many organisms than a pH that varies from 8.0 to 8.5 each day. Of course, if the diurnal swing takes the pH outside of this range, i.e., below 7.8 or above 8.5, then certain processes take place that should be corrected, as detailed below."

Also, when you calibrate a PH probe you place the probe in buffers that are exactly 7 and 10 PH. Why on earth would you need another test kit as a comparison?

As far as testing for ammonia and nitrite, are you joking? I would do ammonia when the tank is cycling but that is the only time.

[UD Flyer]

As far as testing for ammonia and nitrite, are you joking? I would do ammonia when the tank is cycling but that is the only time.

Not to get into anyones battles, but are you joking?

[Logzor]

I am not joking  If my tank has been cycled and is running fine then testing for ammonia is useless. Period.

You only need to test for nitrates not nitrites.

Again I can back this up:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

Quote: "Most aquarists have some familiarity with nitrite. It is part of the "nitrogen cycle" that takes place in most aquariums, and so is one of the first encounters that many aquarists have with their aquariums' chemistry. The marine aquarium hobby is replete with commentary about nitrite, some of which is, unfortunately, incorrect or misleading. Its toxicity in marine systems is far lower than in freshwater systems. Nevertheless, many aquarists incorrectly extrapolate this toxicity to reef aquariums and suggest that any measurable amount of nitrite is a concern."

[slandis3]

Well testing your ammonia will let you know if something has died that you did not see. Or if a large clump of food has gotten stuck somewhere and is rotting and messing up the water. Also just because this works for you dosnt mean it works for everyone. I only dose kalk to my tank where others are adding 2 part everyday. Now if go buy a tang and the pet store has a ph of 8.3 and i have 7.8 and i drip my fish for abot 10 minutes and the ph does not equal out that fish will be stressed to the point of almost killing it. I have seen this first hand. So fluctuations in ph will have an effect on your tank.

[Logzor]

I agree that it is important to test for ammonia if something goes wrong, like you say, a fish dying. Usually it would take something fairly large. Unless it is a very small tank I doubt a piece of lodged food would spike your ammonia. Your bacteria should fix that. Testing say weekly in case a fish dies is something I would no do but may be something someone else would need to do.

As far as the tang how do you know it was the PH that killed it?

[verper]

This quote from it: "With that all said, however, I do not believe that the actual change in pH each day is particularly important. I won’t go into the reasoning behind this claim here, other than stating that it is my opinion, based on my understanding of how most organisms control their internal pH, but I do not believe that diurnal pH changes that stay within the range of pH 7.8 to 8.5 are particularly stressful to most reef organisms.

As far as testing for ammonia and nitrite, are you joking? I would do ammonia when the tank is cycling but that is the only time.

The way I read it, your backup is far from fact.  In fact the author left plenty of wiggle room in that whole paragraph - "my opinion, my understanding, I do not believe".  Until there is a study published with facts, everyone can have their own opinion.  In fact, even after one is published, everyone can have their own opinion.  

Lets keep the tone friendly less this thread gets locked.

[slandis3]

As far as the tang how do you know it was the PH that killed it?

 I got it from a friend that had it for 6 months. It was doing great in his tank when he sold it to ( he tore his tank down due to moving ) me. All levels checked fine except i had low ph. I had a hippo tang,2 clowns, mandrine in there that was doing fine. It was dead by moring.

[bkvreef]

Sorry I didn't mean to start a back yard brawl!
Joel,
I do check for nitrate, magnesium, calcium, phosphate, and the specific gravity.

I have never had any problems and I am pleased with the growth in my tank.
But to be honest (ignorance is not an excuse but it is a fact) I thought that phosphate was the pH.  I know you're sitting there thinking this guy is a moron.  Well in this situation I'd agree with you.

As far as getting a test is a salifert pH test just as good as a probe?  Not to mention less expensive.

[lazylivin]

As far as getting a test is a salifert pH test just as good as a probe?  Not to mention less expensive.

May want to consider getting the PH Pen over the salifert test kit if only one or the other is in your budget. They are very convenient, quick and inexpensive. I use the pen to check PH of the water of a new live stock purchase, new saltwater for a water change and also use it to compare results with my probe. It gives me piece of mind when both the probe and pen are reading same PH. In my opinion you will test your PH more often with the pen vs the salifert test kit because it is much easier. So consider starting with the pen and then if you want the constant monitoring in the future you can get a probe and will still have a use for the pen. In addition to calibration fluid you may want to consider getting reference fluid as well.

BTW: I have not tested for Nitrites or Amonia in the last 5 years. I could see if I had a shop where bioload was changing constantly that would defintley be necessary. But with my personal tank where everything is always the same; feeding, number of fish, snails and crabs, routine water changes there is no need. I do check Nitrates about every 3-6 months but never have any.

[fishnuttoo]

sorry, not trying to hijack

joel, i shoot for 10dkh, just starting to dose everyday, thanks randy holmes farley, with diy baked, baking soda, and mag flake for calcium. 

i keep notes and from day one always 8.1-8.2, its even well ventilated, so probably no co2 problems...

as for the brawl, i havent tested for ammonia for years, but that is just me....

i test alk, ca,  bi weekly, ph monthly,  mag every 1-2 mths
nitrate, phosphate (hate this test kit) every 3 months

all with salifert, one exception- if corals look funny, or when i test something is off, then i test as needed

[bkvreef]

From the sounds of it I agree with Lazy livin I think I want to start with the pen.

Do any of our local sponsors/stores offer these at the same prices as online?  I would like to save some money.

[Reefd Up]

I'm backing Joel up on this.  Whenever someone has a question about stuff, I always try to provide at least a couple of articles on the same subject.  Here's a more *scientific* article that explains the actual chemistry behind pH.  It's not just measuring pH...it's the linking of the carbonate process of pH, alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium.  You can't have 3 pieces of the puzzle without the 4th (and I'm sure other puzzle pieces exist, but these are the big ones.)

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/12/chemistry#h3

Logzor - the article you showed sounded VERY subjective, as verper already stated.  Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley is a well respected chemist, but this article didn't seem to live up to my expectations of him.  In fact, he doesn't site his sources as well.  This article seems like stuff he just pulled off the top of his head and didn't research it well.  Additionally, this article was designed for beginners, and it simplifies the process that occurs.  Yes, there are places in the world where in a single day the water may range from 7.6 to 8.6, but the inhabitants there are adapted to that condition.  That does not make it acceptable for our home aquarium. 

I'll admit, I don't test for ammonia or nitrite unless I see the tank is looking funny.  I do regularly test for nitrate though because that can point to detritus clogged up in a sponge, piled up in the rocks, or a dead spot in the tank.  Up until the year point, I regularly tested for ammonia and nitrite.  In fact, I recommend testing for all three until the two year point as a minimum.  In most expert aquarists opinions, a tank is not fully established until the two year point...and that may vary from tank to tank (some may tank longer.) 

Logzor - You said, "If my tank has been cycled and is running fine then testing for ammonia is useless. Period."  How do you know it's fully cycled and running fine if you're not testing?  Until about the two year point, the nitrogen cycle will fluctuate, although you may not see it.  The spikes will continuously get smaller...and eventually fade away.  If you have nitrates in your aquarium...they had to get there somehow (fish poo, etc)!  That means you have ammonia to some extent.  (Granted, you can have 0 nitrates and still have ammonia at some point...but it's just negligible and converting too fast.) 

My biggest beef with this thread is that what may work for one person isn't going to work for everyone all the time.  I do a lot of stuff that I would NEVER recommend to anyone else...but that's at my own risk.  I recommend tried & true methods and base my recommendations on what the reefkeeping community as a whole does...not on one article.

Sorry I can't contribute more right now...it's a beautiful Saturday evening.

[bkvreef]

Back to my original request

Do any of our local sponsors/stores offer these at the same prices as online?  I would like to save some money

[Logzor]

Edit: I just saw that you posted. I bet Joel has everything you need and I looked at another of your sponsors websites and found a link for you. http://www.finsdepot.com/category/10772310

Thanks for that link....definitely much more scientific and very informative! So far I have only gone through the PH section. It is nice that they actually cited sources.

What I did note seems to correspond to Randy's opinion:

"On some reef flats pH values have been measured to vary from as low as 7.8 to as high as 8.4 in a single 24 hr period (Yates and Halley, 2006). In some lagoons, pH has been measured to vary as much as 1 pH unit in a day (e.g., 7.6 to 8.6)" (Jury)

I suppose I am a bit confused about pH now that several of you are adamant that any kind of swing is bad. Like Joel say the "magnitude" changes sound very significant yet this article mentions that these changes are most common in highly diverse lagoons and reef flats. I assume this is where many of our specimens come from.

Later in the article it states:

"If the pH of our tank water is substantially high or low, it may have direct, negative impacts on many of the organisms in our tanks, not just the calcifying organisms."

I was kind of disappointed to not hear a more sound conclusion on the actual swing in home aquariums. This sounds like it is referring to strictly high and low pH rather than the natural fluctuation is refers to.
 
I apologize if I was rude before. I suppose it kind of struck me that Joel was so opposed to what I believed to be true for so long. I am still not totally convinced but I am glad a lot has been exposed even if it caused a bit of tension  

I would also like to apologize to Bkreef for muddling this thread

[Reefd Up]

I think this thread just proves how very little knowledge/understanding on pH there is. 

[Wall_Tank]

The other thing to remember is we all have different tanks with different livestock.   Certain livestock handle the PH swings better.   If certain spots in the ocean swing from 7.8 to 8.5, I bet the organisms living there tolerate that. 

My tank would swing from 7.9 to 8.15.  When my Kalk reactor would start to run low, it would drop to about 7.8 at night.  That change would change the polyp extension that would occur at night.

I have since, about 2 weeks ago, changed my setup to dose Kalk only at night.....This has worked out pretty well.  I'm still figuring out the dosages, but seems like I might be able to keep my swings to around 0.1


Anyway back to the original question:  What device to check PH.   It's my belief that you should monitor PH 24 hrs a day with a controller.  I run a Neptune Aquacontroller 3.  I have found the PinPoint probes to hold up very well.    But some barely last a year, when used for round the clock monitoring.