mixing salt

[reefit]

does any one have a good way to mix salt? or is one bucket at a time it?

[jeremyt]

i slowly pour a glass cup full into a rubbermaid of rodi water with a powerhead and heater until proper salinity is reached

[slandis3]

I fill my 33g can with ro/di water.Drop in my mag 18, heater, maxi jet with an air tube to inject air. Then add 13 cups of salt.

[rayviv]

I use 44gal Rubbermaid Brute with wheels with about 35 gal RODI water. Add heater, Hagan pump, and 20-22 >2c. containers, let it mix till heat and salinity reaches 78* / 1.026.

Slandis, What does the air do for you? Can you tell a difference w/air?

[Aquatic Specialists]

Aerate to attain proper gas equilibrium.

[Joel]

I suggest & practice the following;

First, run your tap for a minute or so to purge the line of contaminates leached out of your copper plumbing.

Use only the cold side of your tap to feed the R/O unit (or if your using straight tap water, again use only the cold side) 

Once you have filled the container you intend to mix your salt in, don't add your salt yet, aerate the water vigorously - several hours to over night if time allows. An air pump with an air stone or a venturi on a water pump works well for this step. This will force out co2 present in the water. Tap water and R/O units both typically produce water with very low D/O (dissolved oxygen) levels. If you did not  pre-treat your water with an R/O unit, add a quality water conditioner such as Amquel or similar.

Next discontinue aeration and put in a water pump (power head, etc.) Add an appropriate amount of buffer to the water to raise the waters PH & Alk close to where you want it to be. The amount you need to add is determined by the volume of water & desired results, follow the directions of the product you are using. THis is also a good time to add your heater to adjust your water temp.

After the ph & alk & temp have been adjusted, with the water pump still in operation, add your synthetic salt in small quantities until you have achieved the S/G you want. Don't dump it all in at once, add it at least in 1/4's (or less)  and give several minutes between additions. You don't want a bunch sitting undissolved at the bottom of your vat, this often causes a situation where it won't dissolve completely. The salt should mix for several hours to over night. At this point, it should be ready to go.

To explain some of the reasoning behind my suggestions, first if you don't aerate your water it's highly likely that there will be co2 present in the water. The presence of Co2 in the water produces carbonic acid which can (will) drive alk and ph down. The aeration drives the co2 out of the water and temporarily raises the ph. Then the addition of a quality buffer raises the ph & alk and maintains it with more stability. The point of these steps is that you don't want to add your expensive synthetic salt to water that has carbonic acid present in it. The buffers in your synthetic salt are going to have to combat (neutralize) the acids and in turn your brand new water could have a lower ALk and even a lowered ph as a result.

The reason for suggesting to discontinue aeration when mixing the salt is because overly striping co2 out of the water has a tendency to cause calcium and carbonates to precipitate out of the water. You may find a hard crust on the inside of the mix container or it may not dissolve clear & clean if this is happening.

The reason for not dumping all the salt in at once is that it causes localized saturation levels that also cause carbonates to precipitate (not dissolve).

On a side note, I suggest the same aeration and buffering steps for straight R/O water intended for evaporation top off for the same reasons. The un aerated & un buffered fresh water added to your aquarium is going to contain the same carbonic acid and will diminish your carbonizes in the aquarium and in turn lower your ALK and in severe or un monitored cases can even lower your ph.

These suggestions are a little different than what is typically suggested and are more time consuming but can produce a better product and results.



Joel

[Joel]

Aerate to attain proper gas equilibrium.

What is proper gas equilibrium?

[Aquatic Specialists]

It would appear that you already have a pretty good understanding of proper gas equilibrium.

[slandis3]

ok because im a geek and have nothing better to do.


Definitions of equilibrium on the Web:

•a stable situation in which forces cancel one another
•chemical equilibrium: a chemical reaction and its reverse proceed at equal rates
•balance: equality of distribution
•a sensory system located in structures of the inner ear that registers the orientation of the head


Wow I have been out of school to long. I couldnt even remmber the definition of equilibrium.

[rayviv]

                What is equilibrium?  HICCUP

Thank you all for that info; even tho this is not my thread. I now know a better way to prepare/change my water as well as my top off water now.

I would like to know  (if this is OK with reefit?)  what 'a quality buffer' is. I got the purpose of them; I think
I dont want to seem dense but I'd rather be absolutely clear even at that cost.

[TechGuy]

I suggest & practice the following;

First, run your tap for a minute or so to purge the line of contaminates leached out of your copper plumbing.

Use only the cold side of your tap to feed the R/O unit (or if your using straight tap water, again use only the cold side) 

Once you have filled the container you intend to mix your salt in, don't add your salt yet, aerate the water vigorously - several hours to over night if time allows. An air pump with an air stone or a venturi on a water pump works well for this step. This will force out co2 present in the water. Tap water and R/O units both typically produce water with very low D/O (dissolved oxygen) levels. If you did not  pre-treat your water with an R/O unit, add a quality water conditioner such as Amquel or similar.

Next discontinue aeration and put in a water pump (power head, etc.) Add an appropriate amount of buffer to the water to raise the waters PH & Alk close to where you want it to be. The amount you need to add is determined by the volume of water & desired results, follow the directions of the product you are using. THis is also a good time to add your heater to adjust your water temp.

After the ph & alk & temp have been adjusted, with the water pump still in operation, add your synthetic salt in small quantities until you have achieved the S/G you want. Don't dump it all in at once, add it at least in 1/4's (or less)  and give several minutes between additions. You don't want a bunch sitting undissolved at the bottom of your vat, this often causes a situation where it won't dissolve completely. The salt should mix for several hours to over night. At this point, it should be ready to go.

To explain some of the reasoning behind my suggestions, first if you don't aerate your water it's highly likely that there will be co2 present in the water. The presence of Co2 in the water produces carbonic acid which can (will) drive alk and ph down. The aeration drives the co2 out of the water and temporarily raises the ph. Then the addition of a quality buffer raises the ph & alk and maintains it with more stability. The point of these steps is that you don't want to add your expensive synthetic salt to water that has carbonic acid present in it. The buffers in your synthetic salt are going to have to combat (neutralize) the acids and in turn your brand new water could have a lower ALk and even a lowered ph as a result.

The reason for suggesting to discontinue aeration when mixing the salt is because overly striping co2 out of the water has a tendency to cause calcium and carbonates to precipitate out of the water. You may find a hard crust on the inside of the mix container or it may not dissolve clear & clean if this is happening.

The reason for not dumping all the salt in at once is that it causes localized saturation levels that also cause carbonates to precipitate (not dissolve).

On a side note, I suggest the same aeration and buffering steps for straight R/O water intended for evaporation top off for the same reasons. The un aerated & un buffered fresh water added to your aquarium is going to contain the same carbonic acid and will diminish your carbonizes in the aquarium and in turn lower your ALK and in severe or un monitored cases can even lower your ph.

These suggestions are a little different than what is typically suggested and are more time consuming but can produce a better product and results.



Joel

Pretty much what I do.

Always run my RO for several minutes before use, never sees copper plumbing.

I have found a pump with venturi to be much better at balancing the CO2/O2 equation than an airstone. Or quicker atleast.

I try for 24 hours before mixing my Kent salt, but time doesn't always permit this. Busy guy, what can I say

[reefit]

thanks all i am on my way to buy a much bigger bucket being only a year into the hobby i had know idea about the co2 i have not killed much yet. i am moving up to a 90g this weekend that is alot more water to mix. if there are any other tips out there please share

[Joel]

Ray;

There are several options but largely they are all very similar. A simple option is Super Buffer from kent marine. It raises ph & alk all in 1 product. C - Balance is another quality product that I am fond of that will do similar.(raises ca too) These are both simple to use quality products but may not be the best option for all situations.  Another option is just making your own buffer from mostly grocery store bought products. There are several reliable recipes on line available to you.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

I know the subject was tips on mixing salt water but, after mixing up the water I test and adjust it further to get the parameters I want for my tank. I intentionally don't use salt with excessively high trace elements (ca, alk, etc) my first reason is they cost more money, it is a lot cheaper to add supplements to adjust my parameters to where I want it.. Next is because it gives me better control over the product water, I determine how much of each component is in my water and adjust it to be consistent with how I want the parameters in my tank. Last, you can't easily decrease a parameter if it is not where you want it, Seachem's salt for example has a calcium value in the mid to low 500's. There is virtually no situation where that is desirable in a reef tank. That would be shocking to many organisms and could even depress (lower) your ALK. It kind of llike doing a water change and over dosing a calcium supplement at the same time.

I think it is a mistake to not adjust your new water to the same parameters as the aquariums water in terms of SG, ph, CA, mag & alk values. Many people do a water change and then test the aquariums water and adjust accordingly. This is not a stable situation, doing a water change is necessary and very beneficial to the aquarium but should not be shocking or a tax on the system. This is also another reason why the aquarium needs to maintained at a consistent parameter.

This may sound like a lot of effort and even a pain in the butt but once you have a routine down, you know what to do and it becomes pretty easy. For example, I mix up about 150 gallons of water, because I have done this so many times and I use the same brand products each time, I know how much ca, alk and mag supplement I need to add to get their values where I want them. I still test but it's rare that they are not where I expect them to be & it's normally my fault when they aren't. At first, yes it was a pain in the butt testing multiple times to determine how much of each component was needed but because I consistently use the same products, it's very predictable and fairly simple now.

Joel

[harleyrider]

I have never pretested my mixed water except to check salinity, well you can bet your life that i will do a full run of test everytime now, after switching salts and taking for granted that everything would be somewhat close, after killing off $400 worth of fish and corals from the cal being 560ish, and my alk being way to low, i will always test again to make sure for myself that things are where they should be, thanks to Joel for catching this for me everything that didnt die is starting to come back around, im now sitting at 420 cal and 9 kdh...do yourself a favor and precheck your mixed water, it'll could save your tank and your money..

[rayviv]

So what your saying is to check all parems besides just salinity even if you reading zero on TDS.?

[rayviv]

THANKS Joel,
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php
 
Bookmarked !

Reefit: I sure hope you have gotten as much out or your thread as I have. Thank you!

[rayviv]

Just wanted to say that my change water this batch was done as suggested above w/air, temp, salt in that order and salt added more slowly. The kent marine salt desolved as Joel and others said it would and I was pleased that I didnt have to stir and wait and stir....   Water cleared fairly fast and so now I'll wait to see results of non-mixed kent on live stock. Thanks to all

[TechGuy]

Just wanted to say that my change water this batch was done as suggested above w/air, temp, salt in that order and salt added more slowly. The kent marine salt desolved as Joel and others said it would and I was pleased that I didnt have to stir and wait and stir....   Water cleared fairly fast and so now I'll wait to see results of non-mixed kent on live stock. Thanks to all

Keep in mind, its going to take many water changes to get a signifigant amount of Kent into the system, and the old salt out.

[GreatWyte]

This calculator will give ya an idea how long it will take to change over.
http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/RODICalc.php