Efficiently Heating Water

[lazylivin]

With my new system, 60% of total water volume is in the basement where it is cooler. Total system water volume is about 250g. This is presenting a challenge keeping it warm enough. I have a  300w, 200w and 100w heater that are constantly on 24/7 and the warmest it gets (end of light cycle) 76.9F and coolest (beginning of light cycle) is 73.9F. Goal temperature is 78.5 which I never reach. My question is are there best practices for heating a tank. Perhaps heater location, fast vs slow water movement around the heater, 4 200w heaters vs 1 800w heater, insulating the tanks. Anyone happen to have any information on this or more experience with this challenge?

[Reefinmike]

man thats a lot of heaters running. Are you still using that T5 light I traded you downstairs? is it on the same cycle as the dt or is it on an opposite cycle? Insullating the sides and backs of the tanks will help a lot along with covering they tanks if they are not already. Using thick acrylic to cover them would be the best for retaining the heat.

[HUNGER]

i allways put the heaters right before the watter goes to the main tank

[lazylivin]

Yes I am still using t5 set I got from you. Light cycle is the same for both right now. 5pm-11pm
Does that seem like a lot of heater wattage for water volume? Maybe the 300w is not performing well and I should check to see if it bad? It is warm but not HOT to the touch. (under water) Seems that the 200w is a lot hotter but in a lower flow area.
I can add acrylic top to one of the tanks since I don't need much light over it and insulate back and sides.

[cyberwollf]

I agree on insulation.  Maybe cut foam to the correct size and just use stickon velcro to keep them togeather....That way you can just unvelcro it like a spa cover...

Yeah that sucks, your running as much power for heaters as lights... How cold is the basement?

[lazylivin]

i allways pu the heaters right before the watter goes to the main tank

The water is traveling at a rate of about 500 gallons per hour by the heater in the return section. Can the heater work just as efficiently or better in a lower flow are of the sump

[lazylivin]

I agree on insulation.  Maybe cut foam to the correct size and just use stickon velcro to keep them togeather....That way you can just unvelcro it like a spa cover...

Yeah that sucks, your running as much power for heaters as lights... How cold is the basement?

It is about 66F

[HUNGER]

It is about 66F

that could be some of the problem  def check the heaters

[slandis3]

I would step up to a 500w heater and use the 200 and 100 as well. Once it gets to temp they wont stay on so you wont be using as much power as you are now. You could put the foam (pink) board behind the tanks down stairs to help a little. Like Wes said use Velcro attacked to to trim of the tank so you can remove it to look inside.  You can paint that foam with krylon fusion or any water based paint (so it looks better). I would think the heaters would work better in lower flow. If the water is flowing by to quick it wont have a chance to heat it.

[slandis3]

Something else, get some pipe insulation (the black foam you use on plumbing) and wrap all you plumbing. This should help as well. What is the temp in your main living area?

[cyberwollf]

From a conservation of energy argument, I cant imagine flow rate would matter.  Its a closed system so heat is heat.  If you cared about the temp of water AFTER the heater, yes slower might be better, but since its closed, faster flow will heat the whole system more uniformly, while slower flow will have a bigger delta between upstream and downstream temps.

Where do you measure temp at?

[larrynews]

if you want i still have the Hamilton 175w mh ballast no endcap but you can have it, if you think that it might help using it in the basement on reverse time as the main tank.

[TechGuy]

My system is 75+55 (Basement), 75+26+77 (upstairs), for a grand total of 308G (soon to be 462G, woo!!). I have 1x300W, and 2X150W. My temp is a rock solid 80-81F using a Rancor controller. My temp varies slightly as the seasons change, and the heat/AC is on or off. But its pretty solid. In the fall I raise my temp, and lower it in the spring. In the winter/summer I set my controller at 80. My tank is also sharing its space with my central heat/AC unit aswell if that helps.


Lighting upstairs is: 4X54W T5, 1X 36W PC, 1X400W halide, and 2X250W halide. Basement is 2X24W T5. I just setup a frag tank upstairs, so this may change. In the last few days I haven't had an issue.


If you don't have a controller for your heaters, get one, and now. I had one heater that ran 24/7, two that did there own thing. Its so much more stable to have one unit control it all.

[kattz]

Man, you need a nuke plant for that kinda heat...

I can think of some things you can use for the kind of heating you need, but there's a lot of metal in them.  You almost need something that's food grade.  We use these at work; I buy them all of the time, but they are 3-phase 460-480VAC. 

http://www.thermalcare.com/assets/files/RA%20Specification%20(7-207..pdf

You need something that's probably 220V for greatest efficiency.  Cyberwolf's the EE guy; I'm the ME guy.

Kev

[Wall_Tank]

Man, you need a nuke plant for that kinda heat...

I can think of some things you can use for the kind of heating you need, but there's a lot of metal in them.  You almost need something that's food grade.  We use these at work; I buy them all of the time, but they are 3-phase 460-480VAC. 

http://www.thermalcare.com/assets/files/RA%20Specification%20(7-207. .pdf

You need something that's probably 220V for greatest efficiency.  Cyberwolf's the EE guy; I'm the ME guy.

Kev

I probably have a spare heater for one of these laying around the shop........

[TechGuy]

You guys are nuts lol. Your missing the heating from lights/pump/pipe friction/everything else. Plus those things have bronze (copper), and iron (algae fuel) in them.

[Wall_Tank]

You guys are nuts lol. Your missing the heating from lights/pump/pipe friction/everything else. Plus those things have bronze (copper), and iron (algae fuel) in them.

I'd only take the immersion heater, wouldn't use the pump.   The point was he needed to kill his heat transfer out, or put a massive heater to put heat in.

[cyberwollf]

are they running alone or do you have them on your reefkeeper?

[kattz]

You could go this direction. 

http://www.aqualogicinc.com/products/heaters/Inline-Heater.htm

This is what I was looking for earlier but all I could think about is what I'm used to using, which has too much bad metal in it.  Chris also pointed this out .  This could do the job, and a 220V unit might be a better choice for efficiency.  Wes, thoughts?

Kev

[Wall_Tank]

I went back and took a look at your post, and your tank parameters.

It appears your using your reef keeper is controlling the heater.   Make sure that the thermostat on the heater is not shutting the heater off.... IF a heater is in a low flow area, this is more probable.

The more redundancy you can have in your heater circuit, the better.  Couple of thoughts
1) Use a series of small heaters.  Make sure if one fails off, you still have enough to heat the tank.   If one fails on, it alone cannot cook the tank.
2) If you decide you use the thermometer on your ReefKeeper to do all of you heat control.   You still need a way to get redundancy.   The thermostats on the heaters will keep you from overheating, but you need to have something incase the thermocouple fails on the reefkeeper.

Heater failures is a quick way to have bad things happen.

[cyberwollf]

You could go this direction. 

http://www.aqualogicinc.com/products/heaters/Inline-Heater.htm

This is what I was looking for earlier but all I could think about is what I'm used to using, which has too much bad metal in it.  Chris also pointed this out .  This could do the job, and a 220V unit might be a better choice for efficiency.  Wes, thoughts?

Kev

Looks good, but expensive. I still think something doesn't add up. Yea, you have alot of water volume in a cold basement but I don't think you need kW to maintain temp. I once saw a online calc that had you put in volume, room temp, and desired temp, then would tell you roughly how many watts you needed to keep it at temp. Try googling for that and see if you are in the ballpark or not.

It's not like you are a LFS with tons of glass surface area to loose heat through. Water keeps temp amazing well (over 85 in my tank ). I still think you arnt getting 100% from your heaters. Check them on wattmeter?

[TechGuy]

I went back and took a look at your post, and your tank parameters.

It appears your using your reef keeper is controlling the heater.   Make sure that the thermostat on the heater is not shutting the heater off.... IF a heater is in a low flow area, this is more probable.

The more redundancy you can have in your heater circuit, the better.  Couple of thoughts
1) Use a series of small heaters.  Make sure if one fails off, you still have enough to heat the tank.   If one fails on, it alone cannot cook the tank.
2) If you decide you use the thermometer on your ReefKeeper to do all of you heat control.   You still need a way to get redundancy.   The thermostats on the heaters will keep you from overheating, but you need to have something incase the thermocouple fails on the reefkeeper.

Heater failures is a quick way to have bad things happen.

I forgot to mention that about my setup. All my heaters are set to 84, so if the controller freaks out it won't be as bad. But they still come on at the controllers set point. They are located right in front of the bulkheads connecting the tank as well, with the sensor behind them. So they get lots of flow.

[Blown76mav]

 I have one 300w Stealth heater set at 78* in my system (400g total volume) in the basement, with the lights out it drops to 75* at night and never over 78* with the lights on.  Before with the 150 upstairs, same lights just in a canopy, sump in the basement, temp never dropped below 84* even with the heaters off.

[lazylivin]

Definitely going to try the pink insulation and acrylic lid over one of the tanks that doesn't need much light. Even if I can get a 1/2 degree it will be worth it.

From a conservation of energy argument, I cant imagine flow rate would matter.  Its a closed system so heat is heat.  If you cared about the temp of water AFTER the heater, yes slower might be better, but since its closed, faster flow will heat the whole system more uniformly, while slower flow will have a bigger delta between upstream and downstream temps.

Where do you measure temp at?

I am looking for more uniform temperature overall. The temp is measured close to where the water comes in, before the heaters. I will have to check to see what the difference is post heater in the last compartment.

if you want i still have the Hamilton 175w mh ballast no endcap but you can have it, if you think that it might help using it in the basement on reverse time as the main tank.

Thanks Larry, I have got a 400w to hook up yet on a light mover just haven't got around to doing it yet.

are they running alone or do you have them on your reefkeeper?

Yes they are running on a reefkeeper.

I went back and took a look at your post, and your tank parameters.

It appears your using your reef keeper is controlling the heater.   Make sure that the thermostat on the heater is not shutting the heater off.... IF a heater is in a low flow area, this is more probable.

The more redundancy you can have in your heater circuit, the better.  Couple of thoughts
1) Use a series of small heaters.  Make sure if one fails off, you still have enough to heat the tank.   If one fails on, it alone cannot cook the tank.
2) If you decide you use the thermometer on your ReefKeeper to do all of you heat control.   You still need a way to get redundancy.   The thermostats on the heaters will keep you from overheating, but you need to have something incase the thermocouple fails on the reefkeeper.

Heater failures is a quick way to have bad things happen.

Paul I was watching the heaters and one was shutting off even though the internal thermostat was set to 82F (That is fixed now). The 300w one did not seem to be running hot when I touched it, just warm. I hooked it up to a kilowatt meter and found it was only pulling 116w. The other two heaters were within 5% of there rated wattage. So was actually only running a total wattage of about 400 instead of the 600w that I thought. Anyone have any 200w or greater heaters for sale?

I have the heaters internal thermostat set to 82 and the Reefkeeper set to 78.5. I also have it set to text me if temperature breaches 79F, lights go out at 80F and everything shut down at 82F except skimmer and return pump.

Looks good, but expensive. I still think something doesn't add up. Yea, you have alot of water volume in a cold basement but I don't think you need kW to maintain temp. I once saw a online calc that had you put in volume, room temp, and desired temp, then would tell you roughly how many watts you needed to keep it at temp. Try googling for that and see if you are in the ballpark or not.

It's not like you are a LFS with tons of glass surface area to loose heat through. Water keeps temp amazing well (over 85 in my tank). I still think you arnt getting 100% from your heaters. Check them on wattmeter?

You were right on Wes! Hopefully I can get a replacement soon.

You could go this direction. 

http://www.aqualogicinc.com/products/heaters/Inline-Heater.htm

This is what I was looking for earlier but all I could think about is what I'm used to using, which has too much bad metal in it.  Chris also pointed this out .  This could do the job, and a 220V unit might be a better choice for efficiency.  Wes, thoughts?

Kev

This looks expensive