GFCI & AFCI set up...

[Lost Floridian]

So the new 150g tank is really coming along now... http://www.ohioreef.com/index.php?topic=4298.0

We are trying to get everything right this time: better lights, a real skimmer, more functional stand ect ect. Well its now time for me to do the electrical work, and I have a couple of questions for all you experienced and responsible reef keepers to help make this part as professional as the rest of the build.

We want a safe and functional set up. I have a dedicated 20 Amp circuit for this tank and i want to have Ground Fault and Arc Fault breakers for safety purposes,' but what I don't know is how all the reef equipment will react to the breakers.  I have heard that vacuum cleaners can trip an AFCI, and our current GFCI gets tripped every time the ATO kicks in... The last thing that we need is an electrical system that shuts down the entire tank every time the lights come on or the dosing pump kicks in (you know that only happens when you're out of town).

so here are my two thoughts..

Plan A:
1. Install an AFCI in the house's breaker box that is dedicated to only the fish tank
2. downstream from there (built inside a weather proof box inside the stand) have two separate GFCI recepticals (with the equipment divided between the two; for example have the pump and the sump's heater on one breaker and powerheads and the display tank's heater on the other)*
3. install a normal receptical that is just covered by the AFCI breaker for equipment that may falsely trip a GFCI
Pros: if a GFCI gets tripped i can just reset it from inside the stand not across the house, and only half of the tank will be down. By having a GFCI downstream from a AFCI and will be covered for both scenarios.
Cons: if anything falsely tripps the AFCI it will shut down the entire tank or I will have to find another wall outlet to plug it into

Plan B:
1. keep the normal 20 amp breaker in the box running to just the tank
2. build inside a weather prof box under the stand another breaker box with a GFCI breaker and an AFCI breaker
3. run a normal receptical from both of the new breakers and a third receptical directly from the house's normal breaker.
Pros: I can have anything that falsely trips either the AFCI or GFCI on the normal breaker. Or if some equipment only trips one type of breaker I can have it on the other for at-lease some measure of safety
Cons: nowhere is covered by both a GFCI and a AFCI, so its only half safe

*FYI, they also make a dual GFCI/AFCI breaker

So what should I do? Plan A, Plan B or something else. Any help or advice would be appreciated.


Thanks,
Will

[jd]

Will; Why not buy several independent GFCI's for every piece of equipment? If you're going to be doing alot of electrical work anyway it might not be a bad idea. Return on one, heater/chiller/fans on another, powerheads on a few.

I heard, and am no way certain, that AFCI are for stuff that won't be in the water. Lights, fans etc.

Because anything that sorts in the water will take the path of least resistance to ground which is the ground, tripping the GFCI

Lights and such can spark without a ground and don't ways short themselves to ground.

Hopefully someone else can back me up or prove me wrong.

EDIT: For the most part, nevermind my rambling, If you can swing it, 2 lines from your breaker box. One regular, one AFCI(I can't find AFCI sockets) Run out of water stuff on your AFCI. Run everything else on your regular breaker with each component getting its own GCFI (You can get them for about $15 bucks each)

[Wall_Tank]

I'm a Mechanical Engineer, I don't profess to completely understand the latest NEC, but I do alot of reading.

I have heard that vacuum cleaners can trip an AFCI, and our current GFCI gets tripped every time the ATO kicks in... The last thing that we need is an electrical system that shuts down the entire tank every time the lights come on or the dosing pump kicks in (you know that only happens when you're out of town).

I have AFCI breakers for our bed room circuits and the fish tank circuits.  I've only had 1 false trip...... Not sure if it was a storm or something else.   I do test them a couple times a year.  Your right, your going to get false trips........  I would not cut safety out of the plan, the wrong thing fails, and you could catch your house on fire.  Either have someone watching the tank, or plan some sort of battery backup into the tank.   Both Tunze and Vortec have battery interfaces to their pumps.

Have you added up all of the power demand for your tank.  One 20amp service could be a bit thin.

Plan A:
1. Install an AFCI in the house's breaker box that is dedicated to only the fish tank
2. downstream from there (built inside a weather proof box inside the stand) have two separate GFCI recepticals (with the equipment divided between the two; for example have the pump and the sump's heater on one breaker and powerheads and the display tank's heater on the other)*
3. install a normal receptical that is just covered by the AFCI breaker for equipment that may falsely trip a GFCI
Pros: if a GFCI gets tripped i can just reset it from inside the stand not across the house, and only half of the tank will be down. By having a GFCI downstream from a AFCI and will be covered for both scenarios.
Cons: if anything falsely tripps the AFCI it will shut down the entire tank or I will have to find another wall outlet to plug it into

This is how I have my tank done, but I have two AFCI circuits going to the tank, then two GFCI outlets from each circuit.   Every device plugged in around the tank is on these.  I've only had a problem with one power head tripping a GFCI.    It sounds like your going to have all of your power distribution in your tank stand.  So do you only want one or two cords coming out of the stand to the wall. 

Plan B:
1. keep the normal 20 amp breaker in the box running to just the tank
2. build inside a weather prof box under the stand another breaker box with a GFCI breaker and an AFCI breaker
3. run a normal receptical from both of the new breakers and a third receptical directly from the house's normal breaker.
Pros: I can have anything that falsely trips either the AFCI or GFCI on the normal breaker. Or if some equipment only trips one type of breaker I can have it on the other for at-lease some measure of safety
Cons: nowhere is covered by both a GFCI and a AFCI, so its only half safe

You'll need a box that is completely watertight/washdown rated this is going to be pricey, most boxes that you buy are just weather resistant.   I'm pretty sure this type of box will also need to be hard wired.   Nothing in my tank gives false trips today, so if your getting trips on devices...... they may not be false.   The only think that I have ever seen give false trips in my house is the treadmill, which I believe is static electricity causing the trips.

*FYI, they also make a dual GFCI/AFCI breaker

This would be an interesting option.  I have not seen these.  Do you have a link.  Which boxes do they fit
SquareD
GE
CutlerHammer
etc

[Reefd Up]

EDIT: For the most part, nevermind my rambling, If you can swing it, 2 lines from your breaker box. One regular, one AFCI(I can't find AFCI sockets) Run out of water stuff on your AFCI. Run everything else on your regular breaker with each component getting its own GCFI (You can get them for about $15 bucks each)

Have you added up all of the power demand for your tank.  One 20amp service could be a bit thin.

I wish i could run a couple of lines but I that is one of my constraints, I only have 1 20 Amp to work with. I have not added everything up yet (at this point it would just be a guess; we haven’t bought any power heads, dosing pumps, or heaters yet).


To everyone that has out grown 20 amps: What were you running to go though that much power?

This is how I have my tank done, but I have two AFCI circuits going to the tank, then two GFCI outlets from each circuit.   Every device plugged in around the tank is on these.  I've only had a problem with one power head tripping a GFCI.    It sounds like your going to have all of your power distribution in your tank stand.  So do you only want one or two cords coming out of the stand to the wall. 

I would love to do that, but as mentioned I only have 1 breaker to work with. It sounds like you don’t have any real problems with false tripping, (one of my major concerns) but that gives me more confidence that I can run everything with both types of protection.

[Baggerhog]

When I had my 150 gallon tank in my office it was on a single 20 amp circuit that I installed. Off of that circuit I ran two GFI outlets. I then ran two seperate quad boxes under my stand one off of each of the gfi outlets. I was running tunzes, koralies, and a mag 7 when the sump was under my stand. As soon as my wavebox would start to get a calcium build up (and before my controller would notify me with the annoying beeping) it would kick my gfi. I have since upgraded my tank to the basement and added a dedicated 60 amp sub panel for tank equipment and another 40 amps for tank room lighting and non-reef equipment.

[pontiac2002gtp]

chances are you will be ok with your 20 amp but it will be close ideally I would have a 20 for light and another 20 for the rest of the equipment.  I was running a 20 until I added a chiller but I didn't have 400 watt halides.  I have 3 gfci's on my setup one for return pumps and chiller one for lighting and one for everything else.  I would reccomend putting your powerheads and return pumps on a different circuits so if one cuts out the other will still be circulating water in the tank.

[TechGuy]

Hrmmm. All this talk abotu breaker boxes. I just realized, I am aproaching 20A now. When the 55, which sits next to the 120 is up and running, I will be way over 20A.

[slandis3]

I would reccomend putting your powerheads and return pumps on a different circuits so if one cuts out the other will still be circulating water in the tank.

This is how are tank is set up. We are planning on running a 15a AFCI just for our lights. Whats the reason for only 1 breaker? Just out of room in the box? We have 2 20a gfci breakers going to our tank. The auto top off is on a different line because its in another room.

[JoeAyers]

Just an FYI. They now make 1/2 size breakers so you can run two 20amps in one space. You'll just have to put GFIs somewhere else.

Joe

[Reefd Up]

(Nikki here...not above)  Will's handling all this...I avoid electricity stuff.  Anyway, the reasoning behind one 20A breaker is that we have one outlet beside the tank in the living room that is the ONLY thing on that circuit (it used to be for a window unit A/C.)  We aren't willing to run another line to the tank...we'd rather just buy more efficient equipment. 

[slandis3]

here is a list of our last set up. we have up graded a lot so im sure it's better now.

Iwaki 40               130w
mag 12                110
mag 9.5                93
hagen 802             20
little giant             150
250 halide             250
400 halidex3             1200
won heater            200
jebo heater            100
vista heater           200
Snapper return      93
Ocean runner x2               120
Korrlia 2         4.5
Seio 2600      55
Seio 1500      34

Total         2759.5 watts

Watts to amps     2759.5watts = 23.99 amps @ 115volts

[Reefd Up]

here is a list of our last set up. we have up graded a lot so im sure it's better now.

Iwaki 40               130w
mag 12                110
mag 9.5                93
hagen 802             20
little giant             150
250 halide             250
400 halidex3             1200
won heater            200
jebo heater            100
vista heater           200
Snapper return      93
Ocean runner x2               120
Korrlia 2         4.5
Seio 2600      55
Seio 1500      34

Total         2759.5 watts

Watts to amps     2759.5watts = 23.99 amps @ 115volts

(Nikki) Hehe...I think we'll be ok.  We're running a fraction of that.

[verper]

The only thing about a single circuit is there is no redundancy on that entire circuit and Murphy's Law was inspired for a reason.......  In most cases, its easy to add a new circuit or move the setup to a place were it would be easy to add one.

Arc Fault and GFCI do two entirely different things and I don't believe you need a circuit with both.

Arc Fault breakers protect you from a fire from an electrical arc that does not go to ground.  They were initially made because of the hazard of things like electric blankets that break an internal wire from repeated bending, arc out and catch the blanket on fire.  In the fish world, that is good to protect you for things that don't touch or sit in water but may get salt creep on them - lights, external skimmer, main return pump, etc.  

GFCI protect you from things that do go to ground (short).  In the fish world it protects you from electrocution from things that do sit in water - heaters, powerheads, submersible pumps, etc.  Splitting them between the two GFCI circuits is a great idea so that if you had a trip, one circuit should still be working until it is noticed.  Any single GFCI option could allow the tank to go without power a whole work day from .3 milliamps of electrical leakage out of any device.

The I've only had one trip on the Arc Fault breaker in 3+ years and it was from salt creep on a CF flood light over my sump.  Knock on wood, no GFCI trips.

[slandis3]

Yea our new setup is as follows

Dart skimmer      160
Snapper return      90
Halides         800
Koralia 3 x2      13
Koralia    2      4.5
Seio 2600      55
Fuge light      25
Won heater      200
Sump cooling fan   75
Total         1422.5

Watts  to amps      1422.5watts = 12.37amps @115 volts   

Im sure you guys will be fine with 1 circuit. What about installing an AFCI breaker then use a GFCI power strip?

[Wall_Tank]

(Nikki here...not above)  Will's handling all this...I avoid electricity stuff.  Anyway, the reasoning behind one 20A breaker is that we have one outlet beside the tank in the living room that is the ONLY thing on that circuit (it used to be for a window unit A/C.)  We aren't willing to run another line to the tank...we'd rather just buy more efficient equipment. 

Best bet is then to decide if you want the AFCI protection, and put it in the house breaker box.   Then from a single cord, feed a series of 3 or 4 GFCI's.   Do you plan to use a controller?

AFCI - the primary reason for this protection is combustibles around outlets (Like drapes) and cords around combustibles (Drapes, rugs wood)  If a cord begins to arc, the AFCI will in theory trip instantly, preventing the arc from igniting combustibles around the arcing wires.   A normal breaker in a arcing condition may take to long to over amp and trip.

If your going to be close to the 20amp service, do yourself a favor and be sure whoever ran that 20amp service used 12 awg wire.

[slandis3]

If your going to be close to the 20amp service, do yourself a favor and be sure whoever ran that 20amp service used 12 awg wire.

Good point. Our house had 20amp breakers, 20amp outlets and wired with 14/2 NO GROUND    The original wires with new breakers and outlets. So yes what ever you do check it anyways just to be on the safe side.