Phosphate issue

[lazylivin]

I am looking for some help identifying where my phosphates are coming from?

As most know i have had a 4 tank system all plumbed together for almost a year now. Here is a link to my build. http://www.ohioreef.com/index.php?topic=8725.0 The system consists of a 125G display that drains down to two 75g in the basement which both drain to a 50G where the skimmer and heaters are and then back up to the main display.

About 3 months ago I developed hair algae in the system that took off like a rocket. Before a week vacation a little bit was around and when I came back everything was covered. My phosphates have always ran .02 so I was shocked when I checked and they were 1.50. Did a large water change, added a BRS reactor and GFO. The GFO brought it down to .50 in a couple days and then it exhausted so I had to replace it. After replacing the GFO every 3-7 days I was able to get it down to .05 in about 3-4 weeks. I ended up having to add a second BRS GFO reactor and have them both full to keep up with the phosphate leaching. As you may know GFO does good taking phosphate out the water however it really isn't good for corals, certainly not to the amount I was using. It also costs a fortune.
All the while looking for the problem I decided to add Cheato to one of the 75g tanks. Darin (Thank you) gave me a gallon bag full at the May Ohio Reef meeting. I was surprised that one week later the 75g tank was completely full of cheato. One of my boys not even interested in reef tanks says Dad that is the fastest growing plant I have ever seen. Even with two reactors full of GFO and all the cheato the phosphates were still present and the hair-algae started smothering corals. I had to remove all the corals from the rock into a frag tank because of it. After that I had to scrub the hair algae off the rock but it keeps coming back.
During the past three months trying to find out where the phosphates are coming from I have had a few theories.

1.) The phosphate problem came after adding about 60# of dry rock. I got this rock off another reefer that got out of the hobby. For many reasons but one being because of a frustrating algae issue. So I figured the rocks had phosphate build up so I had muratic acid washed, power washed and let dry for about a couple months. Figured the rock was clean which it seems to be but noticed the phosphate did start within a month of adding it. Thought this was the issue so I removed all this rock from the system. Issue didn't go away, since put it back in.

2.) When I built my aquascape I used about 15 tubes of something called Oatey Fix it Stick. It looked identical to Aquamend, smelled the same and acted the same but was 1/2 the price so I used it. Could this be causing the issue? I removed 2/3 of the aquascape that had this but haven't noticed a change since. There is still likely 5 tubes of this in the system.

These phosphates going up and down, use of GFO is starting to kill my SPS. LPS, softies are just fine.

Here is some additional information:
I feed once a day, flake mostly sometimes a cube of mysis and nori for my tangs. Very sparingly
Calcium 400-450
Alk 10-11
PH 8.1-8.3
Mag 1300-1350
Nitrates 0
Nitrate 0
Ammonia 0
 
If anyone has any ideas please throw them out. Even if they seem silly. I am overlooking something here and it may be obvious.
Thanks for reading
Lazy

[slandis3]

Brian I would look into adding a kalk reactor as you and I were talking about. The kalk helps precipitate phosphates out of the water. They are easy to build and you can get kalk ( mrs wages pickling lime ) for less that $4 a pound.

What salt are you using? How old are you light bulbs, what K are they? Maybe your other rock soaked up phosphates and now they are leaching out.  Do you have any Texas holly rock in your system?

[larrynews]

i still have problems with it in the over flow slots, since switching everything over, but i used Brightwell Aquatics Reef Biofuel Liquid , and it helped get rid of all the other hair algae that was growing on rock and walls.

[Kenn]

Checked the MSDS of Oatey Fix it Stick ... No Phosphates

I am leaning toward Phosphates locked up in your rock

[Boonjob]

Checked the MSDS of Oatey Fix it Stick ... No Phosphates

I am leaning toward Phosphates locked up in your rock

+1?


I think I had this very same problem, I have been running Kent Phosphate sponge(have to dump it every 36hrs or less) it has been sucking the phosphate right out of the water pretty quickly... not sure of the adverse on sps, but my lps and softies have been just fine... I have cut my phosphates from 1.0 to less than .03 I did have some algae forming on the new rocks I added but it has completely halted on growth and spreading since using this sponge.... I was using Brightwell phosphate x(as it boasts to do the same as kent sponge but without releasing everything back into the tank at the 48hr mark) but I was barely noticing a change in numbers... Not sure if this will help you at all Brian, wish I could be more help

I plan on just going to regular GFO once I am out of my sponge... hoping that I sucked everything from the rock by that time, If not I will rinse and repeat I guess

I also have a good amount of the Brightwell left if you would like to give it a whirl, let me know, your more than welcome to try it

[micki]

Cody, how much phosphate sponge have you gone through now and how long have you been running it? 

[Boonjob]

Cody, how much phosphate sponge have you gone through now and how long have you been running it? 

I bought a 1.7lb container, I have half left... I have been running it for almost 6 days? I don't add too much to the reactor, as I did not know what would happen but I have replaced the media 3 times, it is due to change again tomorrow morning.... With that being stated the product reads as follows: brings about 1.0ppm of phosphate or silicates down to less than .05ppm in a 120 gallon tank for every dry quart(1.7lbs) of medium. This product will not release soluble compounds into your aquarium, causing negative reactions from your inverts , as competing products may... Leave for 8hours  to 2days maximum as phosphates can be re-released into the system(I change mine every 36-38)...

I think the brightwell was working as well which is why I have not had to use as much sponge but the brightwell always brought my phos down to about .5 and no lower... but it also says it treats double what this does for the same volume of media(which i think may be false, which lead to me under dosing it)

The brightwell product looks like tiny white balls, the kent looks more like tiny popped popcorn(so I think the cracked surface allows for more absorption)

[lazylivin]

Brian I would look into adding a kalk reactor as you and I were talking about. The kalk helps precipitate phosphates out of the water. They are easy to build and you can get kalk ( mrs wages pickling lime ) for less that $4 a pound.

What salt are you using? How old are you light bulbs, what K are they? Maybe your other rock soaked up phosphates and now they are leaching out.  Do you have any Texas holly rock in your system?

I will have to check into a K-Reactor. I am using Reef Crystals, Bulbs are about 4 weeks old 20K and no Texas Holey Rock. I never thought of it leaching up into the other rock. I only took the rock out of the tank for about 3 weeks and put it back in when I thought I had confirmed it wasn't the issue. Now I am second guessing that decision. Probably should have gave it more time to see.

i still have problems with it in the over flow slots, since switching everything over, but i used Brightwell Aquatics Reef Biofuel Liquid , and it helped get rid of all the other hair algae that was growing on rock and walls.

I will have to read up on the BA-RBL. I use MB7 to kick start they cycle a year ago and like it.

Checked the MSDS of Oatey Fix it Stick ... No Phosphates

I am leaning toward Phosphates locked up in your rock

Can you post up the MSDS link. I couldn't find it. Is there anything in their that could cause phosphates?

+1?


I think I had this very same problem, I have been running Kent Phosphate sponge(have to dump it every 36hrs or less) it has been sucking the phosphate right out of the water pretty quickly... not sure of the adverse on sps, but my lps and softies have been just fine... I have cut my phosphates from 1.0 to less than .03

Do you know where the phosphate came from. Was it bad rock?

[thepipbull]

Hey Lazy do u run carbon. During some of my research i read that another potential source is activated carbon, if you run it. certain brands leach phosphates more than others.

[Wall_Tank]

With as clean as your system is, it has to be the rock.   It could take a very long time for it to "clean" up.   

I'm assuming you don't want to replace all of the rock.  The most cost effective method is probably VSV, with a bacteria suppliment of either MB7 or Prodibio.

A little bit of Kalk might help too.

[Boonjob]

Do you know where the phosphate came from. Was it bad rock?

I do believe it was, There was nothing else in the tank that could have shed that much phosphate in my opinion. I wasn't even feeding every other day at that point.

I'm assuming you don't want to replace all of the rock.  The most cost effective method is probably VSV, with a bacteria suppliment of either MB7 or Prodibio.

A little bit of Kalk might help too.

Is dosing really this beneficial? I have read on it quite abit but I still personally view it to have more negative effects than other comparable choices for what it is supposed to do... Do you Vodka dose at all wall, just wondering if you have ever had a bad experience with it?

I also have been told I should run some kalk in my tank but never really looked into it, Is it also this beneficial or other methods?

[DarinSchmidt]

I'm going to have to say its the rock. With the algae issues the person was having before you when you got it and with how clean i saw your tank when i came to pick up the algae.... Also with how well you said the cheato was growing lol

This would be an opportunistic time to setup an algae scrubber. You can oversize the screen of course to clean as many gallons of water you want. 2sq 1" sections of screen per gallon. 1sq 1" section if lighting both sides = 2sq 1" sections lit. I would oversize the screen maybe to clean an extra 50-100 gallons. If you wanted, we could use my screen to expidite a screen for you, actually now that i think about it, if you are OK with waiting till next weekend, i might have a screen ready for you just about. Since i just recieved my new screen, i can rough it up tonight, zip tie it to the existing screen i have, once the algae takes hold to the new, i can give you my old screen.

I have the 30th through the 4th off, which i could help you setup the skrubber if needed. And to really help the algae grow fast, i wouldnt use anything less than 100w CFL 2700k bulbs. Preferably the T5's work better as it distributes the light better, but reg CFL's work well also.

What will happen is at first, depending on how much nutrients are in your system, a dark algae might form, clean it off every 3-4 days, eventually the bright green hard algae will grow, as you will see with the screen i bring you, and then once most of the dark algae is gone, then you can switch to cleaning once week. This will safely remove all the crap out of your water.

[Wall_Tank]

Is dosing really this beneficial? I have read on it quite abit but I still personally view it to have more negative effects than other comparable choices for what it is supposed to do... Do you Vodka dose at all wall, just wondering if you have ever had a bad experience with it?

I also have been told I should run some kalk in my tank but never really looked into it, Is it also this beneficial or other methods?

Dosing is a way to help control the problems.  Sure it would be better to replace all of the rock, but that may not be an option for him.   I'm not sure a turf scrubber is an easy option for his setup either.

Yes, I dosed VV (no sugar) for about 3 years.  I knew the source of my nutrients.  In my case is was a DSB that had some spots that were building up waste.   I just didn't want to pull my tank apart to resolve.    I was able to keep phosphates and nitrates undetectable, almost to the point of ultra-low nutrients in the water column.   I just didn't have the coloration in the corals that I wanted, so I backed off a little on the dosing so that I could just detect Phosphate and nitrate, and that really helped coloration.   Problems with VSV dosing are mostly related to inpatients and incrasing doses too fast.   Even at the largest dose range, I had only had slight bacteria outbreak.  But since the increase in dose was very small, it went away pretty quick when I backed off on the dose.

Now that I have torn my tank down, and removed the nitrate problem.  I have stopped dosing my temp tank setup.   Nitrates are staying around 5-8 right now.   When I removed the sand, there were pockets of waste sludge, mainly in the corners near the bottom......man that really smelled.   I plan to setup a DSB in my sump on my new tank.....it will be after a mechanical filter and my skimmer, so it should stay cleaner.

A DSB might be able to help Brian too, but that will take a while to get the bacteria built up.

[mrfish183]

I may have missed it someplace but what are the PO4 levels of your topoff water and saltwater used in water changes?

You might want to remove one of the suspected rocks, soak it in dilute HCl for a couple days, remove the soak water, adjust its pH to ~ 7 w/NaOH, and then test the soak water for PO4.  If the PO4 is high, then you know your source.

I'd be more inclined to believe your rock is harboring much detritus.  PO4 loaded detritus accumulates in regions of low flow and can solubilize at low pH.  Even if your ambient pH is high, the local pH near the rock can be low as a result of bacterial action.  Also, once hair algae or cyano grabs hold it can easily pull PO4 from those areas even though your ambient water shows virtually nothing. 

I'd start by making sure your topoff water and makeup saltwater is PO4 free.  I'd then go through the tank and remove all the detritus I could (repeat as often as needed, which may be several weeks).  I'd continue to use lots of GFO (well rinsed; preferably the extra hard HC GFO type).  I've used 1000 mL at a time and changed it every week w/o any issue w/SPS.  It is expensive but you can reguvenate it for cents on the dollar.  You could also use lanthanium chloride (available at the pool store) but there is more reef experience w/GFO = potentially safer.  The chaeto also appears to be working well for you so I'd continue until it dies .   

Carbon dosing really isn't going to help you assuming your stated water parameters are correct.  The bacteria developed by dosing carbon need N from nitrate and P from phosphate in a 16:1 ratio.  As such, you have no nitrate for the bacteria to consume and phosphate removal would be minimal --> except for the case of cyanobacteria, which can fix nitrogen directly from the water.  However, I don't think you want to replace hair algae with a nice cyano bloom, which C dosing at low NO3 might cause. 

Just my $0.02.

[cyberwollf]

I may have missed it someplace but what are the PO4 levels of your topoff water and saltwater used in water changes?

That was my first thought.  you at 0 TDS and 0 phos out of your DI?

[kattz]

I've kinda stayed out of this because I'm new to the hobby as far as having a tank.  Brian, as you know, I had to get rid of 50 lbs of rock, substrate change, and a salt change to get rid of nitrates.  I'm running GFO and GAC in my tank, and SPS are (finally!  woo hoo!) doing great.  My guess is TDS or rock issues, or as I found in my tank, perhaps a "muddy" layer under your substrate has the PO4 locked up in it - perhaps in your sumps or secondary tanks even.  I now have a hair algae and red slime issue that I never had before, and am going to try Algaefix Marine after all of the positive (25 pages) feedback on it from RC.  I'm with mrfish on this one, and I'd check your salt water - phosphates could be in the salt.  That's what separated me from TMRP salt - nitrate/phosphate issues.

Kev

[DarinSchmidt]

I think an easy solution would be to give a $50 skrubber a shot. Doesnt cost much, easy to setup and Brian mentioned to me he has the room for it. Could alleviate a lot of other troubleshooting, buying different kinds of salts, getting rid of rock, etc.

Kattz, a skrubber would also take care of your algae issue, may raise your electric bill 5 bucks, but it does more than combat algae where you dont want it, really helps keep your water quality stable and under control, also helps keep your PH stable. To me, dosing chemicals to get rid of algae is a short term gain. I went through two huge bottles in my 55gal tank years back of some stuff that worked, killed the algae, i fed less, turned the lights off sooner, etc, always eventual came back.

I know it seems that i push this skrubber hard, but i believe in what i know works, and i have done my fair share if trial and error on products, wasted countless dollars on stuff that "worked" for others, etc. Been running a skrubber for a few years now and it hasnt let me down yet, has allowed me to do fewer water changes and dose some chemicals which is cheaper than doing weekly 10-20% water changes. All i dose is Calc, Alk, and soon to be Mag because of the clams i now have. Still running off the same water when i setup my tank a few months ago and my water quality hasnt changed at all. Just stopped the Skimmer a few days ago and will be testing the water this coming weekend to make sure my screen is up to par with handling the amount of water that i have. I have yet to meet or hear someone say that an established skrubber didnt work for them. And an algae skrubber can be made to fit anywhere, within reason.

[kattz]

Plans?  Info?  Interested.

[Wall_Tank]

So Darin is finally starting to wear on me.   So I did a little reading.   It does appear to be effective, it is curious what is making this come back.  One of the Sticky build threads on ReefCentral was only started this year.   I would consider this to be a high maintenance category, once setup, your cleaning the screen every 5-7 days.  Removing the screen and going to a sink is recommended as to not let dirty water (Water that would get squeezed from the plant material when scraping)

A lot of folks seem to be using cheap CFL bulbs, 2700K.  But they are saying that after 3 months they need to be changed.   I am assuming they are seeing some color shift in the bulbs that are limiting the effectiveness of the light.   Salt creep can also be an issue with these systems.

I think I'm going to stick with a DSB in my sump.   And just grow some Macro.  A lot lower maintenance.   The thing with a DSB is to feed it clean water.  That prevents any detritus build up in the DSB

[DarinSchmidt]

http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=68
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420


These will get you started as there are a ton of examples and info on what works.

If you look at the Ken inspired Algae Turf Skrubber discussion i started, its rather simple. You need 35-45gph of flow for every horizontal inch of screen, 2 1sq"s of screen per gallon, .5-1w of light per gallon of water in your DT you are skrubbing. Light it for 18 on 6 off. clean off the dark "slimy" algae every 3-4 days till you get the course light green algae.

Just remember, if lets say you only have 200gph of flow, that means that you can have about 5" horizontal screen. You can make the screen as tall (vertical) as you want to make the screen big enough to clean the water. So basically you dont need a wide screen to skrub properly.

So Darin is finally starting to wear on me.   So I did a little reading.   It does appear to be effective, it is curious what is making this come back.  One of the Sticky build threads on ReefCentral was only started this year.   I would consider this to be a high maintenance category, once setup, your cleaning the screen every 5-7 days.  Removing the screen and going to a sink is recommended as to not let dirty water (Water that would get squeezed from the plant material when scraping)

A lot of folks seem to be using cheap CFL bulbs, 2700K.  But they are saying that after 3 months they need to be changed.   I am assuming they are seeing some color shift in the bulbs that are limiting the effectiveness of the light.   Salt creep can also be an issue with these systems.

I think I'm going to stick with a DSB in my sump.   And just grow some Macro.  A lot lower maintenance.   The thing with a DSB is to feed it clean water.  That prevents any detritus build up in the DSB

You clean it every 7 days once the light green algae has taken over. Maintenance on the system is as complex as you want to make it with e DIY design. It takes me maybe 5min, if that, to disassemble the screen, clean it, and put it back together. Salt creep is only an issue if you build walls to stop splatter, which there are other designs that do just as well without building a wall to prevent splatter.

I donno about letting "dirty water" back into the system, as far as i'm aware, its so that you dont release any algae back into the system so that it will decompose and make the waste that you were trying to get out BUT some of your fish might appreciate the treat that like algae. Some people set the screen in their DT for 30min or so and let their fish pick at it as its also good for their diet.

And yes, you have to replace the lights, just as if you were to have PC lights for corals. However, there is some research being done with LEDs, which i plan on venturing into this winter when i have nothing else to do.

[DarinSchmidt]

oh and why is it making a comback? mostly because our light technology has advanced to allow us to actually grow the algae properly. Though what we are growing on the screen isnt really Turf Algae, but algae already in your system, and taking advantage of that by allowing it to grow where we want it to, starving out the areas that we dont want it to.

[Boonjob]

I didn't have the algae scrubber up and running long enough for it to make a significant difference IMO or for me to comment on long term success, but there was coincidence that my numbers did begin to drop with the growth of the algae on the screen(and the prospect of running skimmer less and feeding all you wanted did and still seems nice)... With that being said I think it is worth a shot for the price... However I am currently not and have no intention of running one on my new/current setup, as I opted for the DSB and planted fuge... Not because I dont have faith in the ATS, but rather I really love the look of the planted fuge, and cleaning that screen every 7 days(no matter how simple or little time it took) was still "another thing" I HAD to do... and I found it to become a little annoying trying to schedule another item in on the TO-DO list... That is really the only reasons... And they do stink a little bit if you get uneven flow or the algae begins to plug up your tube, things would plug up and I wouldn't really stop to notice it until it started to get a little funky smelling around the tank.

If your bored and have 50 bucks to spend, build ya one, not like it hurts to rip it down if you become disinterested with it.

Also on the DSB, I have never ran one before, they do seem pretty straight forward... however the way my sump is set up atm allows for the tank overflow to flow into the first chamber which is merely a small tower bubble trap, then it dumbs into my fuge(dsb) then into the skimmer/pump section... I see where you said to allow only clean water at it, and it makes 100% sense, however given my setup, would throwing filter socks on the over flow outlet tubes be enough? or do I really need to reroute everything to the other side of the sump?

[DarinSchmidt]

yeah, the smell you are getting i forgot to mention is from the dark algae from the high nutrients in your tank that it is removing. Once its the light green, you can only smell it if you put your nose on it, at least thats how it is in my tank. But i have narrowed my maintenance to basically cleant he glass, the sand once in a while and do the screen once a week, so maintenance on my big tank is very minimal. Sometimes i let the screen go for 2 weeks if i dont have time and i havent had any negative effects, but i wouldnt recommend doing that all the time. Oh and i dose chemicals every couple weeks. So at most i spend 1hr a week, if that, on maintenance on my tank.

[kattz]

My sump is covered, and I'm not willing to dump money back into the system for lighting, modifications, and so forth at this time.  Plus, my tank is near my library of almost $10k worth of books and my computer system, which is around $4K, so the less salt and water vapor in the air at my location, the better.  Thanks for the links; I'm gonna skip it for now.

Kev

[DarinSchmidt]

you should add your books to our library even though i'm sure they're not all fish related

But yeah, whenever you feel like giving it a try, an enclosed system can be easily made and still not cost much, maybe 100, or close to that depending on how it needs to be made. Still rather minimal in price considering all that it does and the money you may save in other areas.


You have a $4k cmputer, what do you have a dual zeon with 10TB of drive space or something? 4 Monitors with some high end graphics cards?

[cyberwollf]

you should add your books to our library even though i'm sure they're not all fish related

But yeah, whenever you feel like giving it a try, an enclosed system can be easily made and still not cost much, maybe 100, or close to that depending on how it needs to be made. Still rather minimal in price considering all that it does and the money you may save in other areas.


You have a $4k cmputer, what do you have a dual zeon with 10TB of drive space or something? 4 Monitors with some high end graphics cards?

At work i do   dual Xeons,16gb ram, gtx460(kinda old) and dual 28 inch monitors i think

[Boonjob]

At work i do   dual Xeons,16gb ram, gtx460(kinda old) and dual 28 inch monitors i think

Its good to see our tax dollars are being used for something good ;P

[kattz]

you should add your books to our library even though i'm sure they're not all fish related

But yeah, whenever you feel like giving it a try, an enclosed system can be easily made and still not cost much, maybe 100, or close to that depending on how it needs to be made. Still rather minimal in price considering all that it does and the money you may save in other areas.


You have a $4k cmputer, what do you have a dual zeon with 10TB of drive space or something? 4 Monitors with some high end graphics cards?

My computer that I use for the forums is an Intel Core i7 930-based liquid-cooled system with 5 drives, a Radeon 5700 video card, and 6 Gb of RAM, all in a heavily-modified, custom-painted CoolerMaster Cosmos chassis with an external paint job by CSX Customs.  29" monitor.  I also use this system for FPS, RPG, and sim stuff (Total War:Shogun 2), plus school work, photography apps, and music apps.

The system that is currently under build will use an Intel i7-990X hexacore processor, two graphics cards running SLI or CrossFire, 12Gb of RAM, USB 3.0, and quad SSD's running a RAID 10 config; two 1Tb drives will run a RAID 1 config for data file storage.  This is strictly a flight-sim machine.  The build is 25% complete.

All of my mobos are ASUS Rampage-series LGA 1366-based boards.

Kev

[Wall_Tank]

My computer that I use for the forums is an Intel Core i7 930-based liquid-cooled system with 5 drives, a Radeon 5700 video card, and 6 Gb of RAM, all in a heavily-modified, custom-painted CoolerMaster Cosmos chassis with an external paint job by CSX Customs.  29" monitor.  I also use this system for FPS, RPG, and sim stuff (Total War:Shogun 2), plus school work, photography apps, and music apps.

The system that is currently under build will use an Intel i7-990X hexacore processor, two graphics cards running SLI or CrossFire, 12Gb of RAM, USB 3.0, and quad SSD's running a RAID 10 config; two 1Tb drives will run a RAID 1 config for data file storage.  This is strictly a flight-sim machine.  The build is 25% complete.

All of my mobos are ASUS Rampage-series LGA 1366-based boards.

Kev

That makes your reefing hobby seem more plain

[Kenn]

I think we are getting a little off topic

[kattz]

Like you, I'm a technically-oriented person, and I like high-tech stuff!

[kattz]

Leave it to you to keep us on track, Kenn!

[Kenn]

Leave it to you to keep us on track, Kenn!

Only because I get so off topic myself

[Reefpete]

Please keep us updated on the progress Lazylivin.

[lazylivin]

Thank you everyone for feedback and suggestions. I haven't done anything new yet. Just keeping the gfo running and pruning the cheato. Sounds like consensus is rock. I may isolate it and see if the phosphates go up in the tank with the rock as mrfish recommend. Also may try a scrubber but will be awhile to find time. I will keep everyone posted. Keep ideas coming.

[slandis3]

Thank you everyone for feedback and suggestions. I haven't done anything new yet. Just keeping the gfo running and pruning the cheato. Sounds like consensus is rock. I may isolate it and see if the phosphates go up in the tank with the rock as mrfish recommend. Also may try a scrubber but will be awhile to find time. I will keep everyone posted. Keep ideas coming.

If you need that tub just let me know its here not being used right now.

[DarinSchmidt]

Thank you everyone for feedback and suggestions. I haven't done anything new yet. Just keeping the gfo running and pruning the cheato. Sounds like consensus is rock. I may isolate it and see if the phosphates go up in the tank with the rock as mrfish recommend. Also may try a scrubber but will be awhile to find time. I will keep everyone posted. Keep ideas coming.

Ok, if you decide to, or if anyone wants it, in a couple weeks, my new screen should be good to go so the old can be given to someone else. The only thing is, that you will have to take it soon as you have to keep it wet.

[micki]

Ok, if you decide to, or if anyone wants it, in a couple weeks, my new screen should be good to go so the old can be given to someone else. The only thing is, that you will have to take it soon as you have to keep it wet.

Maybe interested in that Darin!

[Amstar]

Lazy do you have any egg-crate in the tanks? I found that when i laid the bottom of my tank with the white egg-crate and placed sand over it,  I had all kinds of algae issues.  Then I removed the egg-crate and my algae problems went away.  Could it be the egg-crate maybe or maybe I was paying more attention to my tank, thus better care of it during that time?

just a thought 

[DarinSchmidt]

Maybe interested in that Darin!

ok, if Brian doesnt want it you can have it. I'll trade you for that achilies tang jk

[micki]

ok, if Brian doesnt want it you can have it. I'll trade you for that achilies tang jk

GREAT!   

Ha ha ha...You would have a big fight on your hands for my achillies! 

[lazylivin]

ok, if Brian doesnt want it you can have it. I'll trade you for that achilies tang jk

I will pass for now Darin. Thanks for the offer though

Lazy do you have any egg-crate in the tanks? I found that when i laid the bottom of my tank with the white egg-crate and placed sand over it,  I had all kinds of algae issues.  Then I removed the egg-crate and my algae problems went away.  Could it be the egg-crate maybe or maybe I was paying more attention to my tank, thus better care of it during that time?

just a thought 

I do have egg crate in my frag tank but it is bare bottom. I know what you mean though. Had the same issue before as well. It really traps the Detritus.

[DarinSchmidt]

ok, well micki, looks like you can have it then if you are ready for it when i switch to my new screen. Its taking off pretty well, got to clean it tonight, so i'm thinking it should be ready by next friday.

[micki]

ok, well micki, looks like you can have it then if you are ready for it when i switch to my new screen. Its taking off pretty well, got to clean it tonight, so i'm thinking it should be ready by next friday.

I'll be ready!  What exactly do I need to have Randy do to have what I need ready? 

[Reefpete]

I'll be ready!  What exactly do I need to have Randy do to have what I need ready? 

What? Lets all look at this statement shall we!  Something just seems a little fishy. 

[micki]

What? Lets all look at this statement shall we!  Something just seems a little fishy. 

It's called the JOY of being a WOMAN!!!  LOL   

[DarinSchmidt]

I'll be ready!  What exactly do I need to have Randy do to have what I need ready? 

it all depends on how you want to hook it up. The screen i have is 1.9" wide and i think it is 10" tall. What you will need is some PVC with a slit cut in it, just like i show in my 280gal DIY thread. If you want it gravity fed, have the drain line run to this PVC skimmer tube. Then however you want to do the lighting, you will need at least 4 100w CFL 2700k bulbs, 2 for each side. IT all basically comes down to how you want to set it up, but thats really all that you need. Oh and of course, something to suspend the tubing above the refuge.

[micki]

Ok, I'll show this to Randy and see what he says.

[thepipbull]

Micki check this link out should answer any question you have

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420&highlight=ats

[DarinSchmidt]

it might be best to go to algaescrubber.net because just like many other threads on RC, its congested with a million posts. But the first couple posts are main key points.

[slandis3]

it might be best to go to algaescrubber.net because just like many other threads on RC, its congested with a million posts. But the first couple posts are main key points.

   Kinda like how this thread got off track

[Boonjob]

TOAST !

[kattz]

  Kinda like how this thread got off track

+ like 1000.

[micki]

Darin, Randy said he doesn't think we have the space right now until he changes a few things.  Doesn't think he will be ready next week.  The "honey do" list is a bit long right now!  LOL

Now back to your scheduled phosphate issue topic! 

[lazylivin]

Yesterday I finally got around to making a change. The tank that is full of the suspected rock is no longer inline with the rest of the system. If that tank phosphates go up and the main tank goes down than it would likely prove rock is issue. However as someone mentioned the phosphates have likely been absorbed by the good rock. Time will tell. Thanks for all the suggestions and will keep posted on changes.

[larrynews]

i started dosing reef bio fuel again , just a maintenance and it is taking care of the overflows which is where  mine is

[lazylivin]

Thanks Larry, it looks like good stuff. I use MB7 but will look into this instead.

[micki]

i started dosing reef bio fuel again , just a maintenance and it is taking care of the overflows which is where  mine is

Larry how long have you been dosing this?  Do you think it works better/cheaper than phosban?

[larrynews]

i use it instead of vodka, i used back when i changed my tank over and hair algae real bad and it took care of it, now i'm using it again to help with algae growing in the overflows....

http://www.marinedepot.com/Brightwell_Aquatics_Reef_Biofuel_Liquid_17oz_500mL_Bacteria_Water_Treatments_Conditioners-Brightwell_Aquatics-BW01230-FIADWTBS-vi.html

[micki]

So that would be about 8 caps each day...I need to do some math and see how the $$$ comes out compared to phosban.  How long did you have to do this for your HA outbreak?

[larrynews]

i think about 2 weeks then i just did it once or twice a week i cant remember, for maintenance so it wouldnt come back. i got it at first from rich at coral ranch, i'd check with him to see if he can get it.  how big is your tank and how bad it the problem???

[larrynews]

Medium- to High-nutrient Systems: Add 5 ml (1 capful) per 50 US-gallons (189.3 L) [˜2 drops per gallon (3.8 L)] of aquarium water daily. Monitor concentrations of phosphate and nitrate with accurate test kits; phosphate and nitrate should eventually become immeasurable (or nearly so) when a balance is reached between the rates of nutrient-input and nutrient-assimilation. Thereafter, switch to “low-nutrient” dosage (below). Low-nutrient Systems: Add 5 ml (1 capful) per 100 US-gallons (378.5 L) [˜1 drop per gallon (3.8 L)] of aquarium water daily. With time, hobbyists may determine that decreasing the dosage and/or dosing frequency by up to 50% sufficiently maintains a low-nutrient environment. During changes in biological filtration or when increasing the aquarium bioload, dose 1 drop per 50 US-gallons daily for one week, then resume “low-nutrient” dosage.

[Reefpete]

wow 

[micki]

the problem is very minor at this time.  I over feed and can see some P04 issues coming on. 

[kattz]

i have a similar issue as Brian cropping up, and am going to try Brightwell Katalyst.  They guys at Phishy Business are swearing by it and I'm going to order tomorrow.  Run it instead of GFO.  Seed using MB7.

Kev

[larrynews]

mine is just a nuisance on the over flow slots, thats why i just use it to maintain, i to over feed have for 7 years and dont see me stopping anytime soon.

[Wall_Tank]

These are all various forms of Carbon dosing.

Probably contain various forms of carbon.   Vodka, Sugar, Vinegar is just cheaper.   They appear to be diluted more, to reduce the risk of accidental overdosing.

I used Prodibio for a while, with good results, I just opted for the cheaper VSV.

[lazylivin]

Update on my issue.

Recap... Having a Phosphate issue in my tank. Despite exporting phosphates via an unusual amount of Cheato growth/pruning excessive and large Water Changes tremendous amount of GFO the phosphate comes back. Typically takes about 1.5 weeks to exhaust 5 cups of GFO.

The suspects are.
A.) Rock that was purchased from another reefer who got out of hobby due to Algae issue.
B.) Oatley Fixit stick used to create rockscape.

System consits of 125G display with minimal rock work. None of which is the suspect rock but contains the Oatley fix it stick. This tank is plumbed to a 75G tank full of the suspect rock and a 75g frag tank and 50 gallon sump.

The consensus was to isolate the suspect rock from main system to see identify where the issue is coming from.

On 7/28, took the 75 gallon tank with suspect rock out of the main system loop. Here are the results.

System A = 75g Tank full of suspect rock, cheato with 300w light on it, hang on back protien skimmer and Koralia 4.

System B = 125g Display with suspect Oatley Fix it Stick, 75g Frag Tank, 50g Sump, Reef Octopus Skimmer and plenty of circulation in all tanks. Also running 2 BRS GFO reactors with 5 cups of GFO.

Only Maintenace done during this duration of time was on System B. Did 55g Water Change on Aug 6 and replaced 2.5 cups GFO in one reactor.

[slandis3]

How much of the epoxy did you use?

Is the algae only growing in the main tank or is it growing in other tanks hooked to system B?

[kattz]

Here's a thought, and it's not an easy decision.  You may have already done it, but here goes.  You remember how I had to pull my tank down and clean up?  In looking at your tank, most of your corals have taken a heckuva hit. 

There's a cleaner solution that's reef safe that will clean any slime out of the plumbing, which may be contributing to your issue.  You can get it from Kim or online, and you can run it now to get ahead of the follow on recommendations.  I'm using it and it's working as advertised.  See link:
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/Waste_Away/Algae_Slime/Algae_Slime.html

Make up enough water to replace the system water in the B system.  I know this in itself will take a lot of work. 

Pull out your livestock and your corals that you can save, and put them in that quarantine tank of yours.

Pull ALL of the rock, and all of the sand.  Wipe out the tank, plumbing, etc. 

Put in four bags of new live sand, leave the rock out, and get the system going again. 

After 48 hours and water test OK, return the livestock.  Leave the rock out.

This is what I did, and 95% of my n03 and p04 problems went away immediately and have stayed away.  You could have "mud" under your substrate that is contributing to this, the substrate is leaching out phosphate, and any other issues that this will fix.  I know it sucks, but best I can think of.

[Boonjob]

Have you tested your salt mix for phosphates? I know they all say nitrate and phosphate free, but I have read that some mixes still yield a decient phosphate reading  even though they claim this.

You may have answered this but have you recently changed any food or used any epoxy's on the tank?

I may have to agree with Kattz on this one, It may be laden in your substrate... how deep is it and how old?  When I had the 55gal I had a bad phos/trate problem and when I switched to the 90 I switched everything over EXCEPT the substrate. I chose to buy live from premium aquatics and my numbers dramatically decreased and remained low, and continued to fall... The number still isn't SPS worthy but it was a HUGE Change and I suspect the remaining amount is just what was left in the rocks.

[HUNGER]

i dont belive its the substrate cuz i have never had a Phosphate issue in my tank beside some bad salt i have 5 to 6 inchs of sand that has never been vacuumed in 6 years unless the substrate was in a tank for a long time with very high Phosphates and is now just leaching it out in the tank

[kattz]

Porosity, componsition, history of tank, and other variables need to be considered.  Since we can't access most of this info, sometimes it's best to err on the side of caution.

[Boonjob]

I promise you it was the sand in my case(absolutely nothing else changed), if Todd would like to humor us he has that very same sand in the 55gal still he could always add some clean ro water to a small batch of it and test it with the sali kit...

I have also read numerous posts/articles about laden phosphates in brand new bags of carrib sea... anything decaying is gonna realease phosphates, I dont believe the sand will asorb this(per granule), but I do believe it can certainly trap and harbor it between the granules. If any food,snails, etc make it down deep enough into the sand I believe it could vary well release phosphates later down the road if distrubed or slowly leach out over time as organisms in the sand move them to the surface

[Todd W.]

I promise you it was the sand in my case(absolutely nothing else changed), if Todd would like to humor us he has that very same sand in the 55gal still he could always add some clean ro water to a small batch of it and test it with the sali kit...

I have also read numerous posts/articles about laden phosphates in brand new bags of carrib sea... anything decaying is gonna realease phosphates, I dont believe the sand will asorb this(per granule), but I do believe it can certainly trap and harbor it between the granules. If any food,snails, etc make it down deep enough into the sand I believe it could vary well release phosphates later down the road if distrubed or slowly leach out over time as organisms in the sand move them to the surface

Yep I still have it in my garage and it is not cleaned out yet, still has the sand.  What did you want me to do with some of it?  Put it in some RO/DI and run what Salifert test on it?

[kattz]

I talked with Brian on this earlier and this tank is about a year old, so now I'm stumped.  For some reason I thought it was around 4-5 years old.

[HUNGER]

his 75 mite have been but he just got done doing his big tank swap

[slandis3]

Has anyone actually tested the water that comes out of a bag of "live sand"? I have a hard time believing anything good is alive in there.

[HUNGER]

oo i bet

[Todd W.]

Has anyone actually tested the water that comes out of a bag of "live sand"? I have a hard time believing anything good is alive in there.

Great idea... I've wondered the same about how something can be alive on the shelf... I theorize that the only thing may be bacteria in hibernation???

[Todd W.]

http://www.fishchannel.com/setups/saltwater/about-live-sand.aspx

<<The live component of the sand includes aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, forams, annelid worms, crustaceans (primarily isopods and amphipods) and, occasionally, tiny brittle stars. The grain size varies from very fine to chunky. I prefer a medium grade in which the grains are about the same size or slightly larger than a pinhead. I have found that the very fine grades may remain suspended because of water pumps, which can result in clogged external filters and destroyed impellers. On the other hand, large grades are more difficult for our clean-up crew to keep stirred up (more on this later). >>

Taking a look at some other groups like ours, the conventional wisdom is to ensure the date on the bag is very recent, like within a month (some say the shelf live is effectively 6 months).  Another person checked the Nitrates and Phosphates on a bag that they purchased and both were "really high".

There are several suggestions of purchasing high quality seeded 'grunge' from here http://www.garf.org/index.shtml . My assumption is that it would be fresh, but have never used their product.  Use it to seed dry sand that would be cheaper than 'live sand'.

Has anyone purchased or used GARF's offerings before?

Other suggestions are just use live rock dry sand and a pound or two of 'live wet sand' that a LFS has in a tank.   

If you are up to experimenting to give feedback to the group, I would really like to know if the GARF stuff is worth the purchase....

Just my $.02 while having coffee (my kind daughter made) and surfing the net

[lazylivin]

How much of the epoxy did you use?

Is the algae only growing in the main tank or is it growing in other tanks hooked to system B?

It is growing in all the tanks. I used about 15 large tubes of epoxy which are double the size of aquamend.

Here's a thought, and it's not an easy decision.  You may have already done it, but here goes.  You remember how I had to pull my tank down and clean up?  In looking at your tank, most of your corals have taken a heckuva hit. 

There's a cleaner solution that's reef safe that will clean any slime out of the plumbing, which may be contributing to your issue.  You can get it from Kim or online, and you can run it now to get ahead of the follow on recommendations.  I'm using it and it's working as advertised.  See link:
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/Waste_Away/Algae_Slime/Algae_Slime.html

Make up enough water to replace the system water in the B system.  I know this in itself will take a lot of work. 

Pull out your livestock and your corals that you can save, and put them in that quarantine tank of yours.

Pull ALL of the rock, and all of the sand.  Wipe out the tank, plumbing, etc. 

Put in four bags of new live sand, leave the rock out, and get the system going again. 

After 48 hours and water test OK, return the livestock.  Leave the rock out.

This is what I did, and 95% of my n03 and p04 problems went away immediately and have stayed away.  You could have "mud" under your substrate that is contributing to this, the substrate is leaching out phosphate, and any other issues that this will fix.  I know it sucks, but best I can think of.

Plumbing is all clear vinyl tubing (40 feet) no build up, can see through the tubing just fine. 3 of the tanks are bare bottom and there is nothing on the bottom. Main display has about 1" of sand which is less then a year old and i siphon about every third water change and all rock is lifted above the sand via mounts. Thanks for the input  though Kev, certinaly wan't to rule everything out. I am missing something that is causing the issues.

Have you tested your salt mix for phosphates? I know they all say nitrate and phosphate free, but I have read that some mixes still yield a decient phosphate reading  even though they claim this.

You may have answered this but have you recently changed any food or used any epoxy's on the tank?

I have tested fresh Reef Crystals Saltwater RO/DI mix and it is 0 on the Hannah Phosphate meter.  No change in food. Since the inception of the system 1 year ago I have feed  a total of 3/4 a package of ROD's food, one package of Mysis and about 1oz of Flake and 10 alage sheets.

That was my first thought.  you at 0 TDS and 0 phos out of your DI?

Yes I have a meter and alarm on output of the RO/DI unit that notifies anything other than 0.

[slandis3]

Brian I put about a half of a tube of aquamed in our tank and we got a small brown algae outbreak across the sand. I did 2 water changes and it went away. I wonder if that could be a large part of the problem. I would run to Lowes and get a stick of the stuff you used and set up a small tank of salt water with it in there and do some testing.

[lazylivin]

That is a GREAT idea! I am going to do that. I have a couple tubes left.

[Steve]

Has anyone actually tested the water that comes out of a bag of "live sand"? I have a hard time believing anything good is alive in there.

I have always wondered about that myself. I have used the GARF grunge, about 2 pounds in a 90 about 6 or 7 years ago. No scientific proof buy I believe that it helped seed my tank. Definately added some critters. Alot of micro stars.Brian I hope you get your problem solved, I too am having phophate issues but I believe mine is more from the tank and the sand being old. I know that my sps don't like it.

[lazylivin]

Kattz came by and spent the afternoon to hang out and we did a few tests.
1.) pulled a piece of the epoxy out of aquarium and cut it up into powder and mixed with a cup of tank water. Reading was .07. Just tank water is .05 that is an increase so I am guessing there is a possibility that it is a source of phosphates.
2.) took new uncured epoxy and dissolved in tank water and it was .64 (Kind of a silly test as it contains the curing agents that dissipate after cured)
3.) The long term test we have going is put a piece of cured epoxy in fresh mixed saltwater for a week and see if it leaches out just sitting.

[HUNGER]

o wow

[Boonjob]

Kattz came by and spent the afternoon to hang out and we did a few tests.
1.) pulled a piece of the epoxy out of aquarium and cut it up into powder and mixed with a cup of tank water. Reading was .07. Just tank water is .05 that is an increase so I am guessing there is a possibility that it is a source of phosphates.
2.) took new uncured epoxy and dissolved in tank water and it was .64 (Kind of a silly test as it contains the curing agents that dissipate after cured)
3.) The long term test we have going is put a piece of cured epoxy in fresh mixed saltwater for a week and see if it leaches out just sitting.

what kind of epoxy did you use?

[Reefpete]

Well Brian, as the Army tough me you always want to check the simple stuff first. Makes me wonder why you didn't check this in the first place before adding it to your display? Hope that this is the true problem and that it is an easy fix! Can't wait to see your setup!

[lazylivin]

I did check it. It says safe for potable water and once cures is inert + all the reef threads that say they have and are using it with no issue.

http://www.michiganreefers.com/forums/lighting-filtration-other-equipment/85625-coral-putty-safe-fix-stick-harveys-plumbers-epoxy-putty.html
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f11/marine-aquarium-help-129504.html
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1808676
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1512122

I haven't yet found any conclusive evidence to indicate this stuff contributing to the phosphate problem.  The true test is if the cured expoxy leaches anything into the water sample on it's own over the next couple weeks.

[Boonjob]

I did check it. It says safe for potable water and once cures is inert + all the reef threads that say they have and are using it with no issue.

http://www.michiganreefers.com/forums/lighting-filtration-other-equipment/85625-coral-putty-safe-fix-stick-harveys-plumbers-epoxy-putty.html
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f11/marine-aquarium-help-129504.html
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1808676
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1512122

I haven't yet found any conclusive evidence to indicate this stuff contributing to the phosphate problem.  The true test is if the cured expoxy leaches anything into the water sample on it's own over the next couple weeks.

Yeah almost all epoxys are gonna release phosphates/trates until cured.

[slandis3]

Brian I am thinking that maybe some of this never fully cured and its breaking down and releasing junk into the water.

[HUNGER]

the epoxy i did the group buy on suck it would brake apart after a week or to  i stoped using it

[Reefpete]

I did check it. It says safe for potable water and once cures is inert + all the reef threads that say they have and are using it with no issue.

http://www.michiganreefers.com/forums/lighting-filtration-other-equipment/85625-coral-putty-safe-fix-stick-harveys-plumbers-epoxy-putty.html
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f11/marine-aquarium-help-129504.html
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1808676
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1512122

I haven't yet found any conclusive evidence to indicate this stuff contributing to the phosphate problem.  The true test is if the cured expoxy leaches anything into the water sample on it's own over the next couple weeks.

Sorry Brian, that didn't come across the way it sounded in my head.

[lazylivin]

It is all good Pete. You were right I should not have used something that was not more known in the reef hobby.

[HUNGER]

we all make mistakes we just need to learn from them

[kattz]

the epoxy i did the group buy on suck it would brake apart after a week or to  i stoped using it

Mine I got from you has been OK.

[HUNGER]

thats good one of the tubes worked fine  the other 3 sucked

[lazylivin]

Source of Phosphates found! Tank is looking good again, corals are rebounding and I happy. I will get a picture of the issue and post up soon.

[HUNGER]

thats great what was it the rock

[Boonjob]

Great news!

[micki]

Source of Phosphates found! Tank is looking good again, corals are rebounding and I happy. I will get a picture of the issue and post up soon.

What was it???

[kattz]

You too will be shocked and amazed!  Stay tuned..  (BTW, I know what it was but I'm not tellin!)

[lazylivin]

I will get a pic posted up soon. 

[The WuSue]

The suspense is killing me....

[cyberwollf]

I bet it was a dirty diaper.... Or a giant chunk of white phosphorus.

[lazylivin]

Dirty Salt. That is the inside of my 55g water change drum. I can't normally see inside the drum because it has only a 5" hole on top and is sitting up off the ground and in a dark closet. A pipe that goes down to the bottom of the drum popped off,  I reached in to reconnect it and my arm came out with this foamy brown sludge all over it. The salt that created this problem was either Red Sea Coral Pro or Reef Crystals though I am not certain but leaning toward RC due to timing of problem and my switch. A google search brought forward plenty of posts with this occurring with many major salt brands at one time or another. Although one manufacture said it is harmless and is good for your tank my corals and phosphate meter would disagree. Since correcting this issue I have pulled about 5 pounds of wet dead algae out of my tank which is now running GFO free and phosphates are down to .02.

http://www.theaquariumsolution.com/brown-deposit-h2ocean-pro-plus-salt

[HUNGER]

o wow  rscp had a bad batch earlyer this year

[lazylivin]

If you happen to have any link to it let me know. Thanks

[HUNGER]

dont have a link it happend to me and mike that how we had the hair algea out break  it was the last run of salt befor they brought out the new salt

[lazylivin]

I do remember both your hair algae outbreaks. Didn't know it was from the salt. I guess it makes sense since we all probably get it from the same place same batch. The algae/phosphate issue started April for me. So would have been salt I bought Feb or March

[kattz]

Well, now you can finally move forward with that 400g build... j/k.

[chromiumlux]

Oh wow! I had that issue with Kent salt a long time ago. Switched over to ESV and have not had any issues yet, other than my corals are growing like crazy.

[lazylivin]

I have read nothing but good things about ESV salt. It is pricey but the money I spent in GFO getting it out of the tank could have more then paid for the extra cost of salt.

[Boonjob]

My clear barrel started looking exactly like this using reef crystals... I even said in an earlier post it was mainly the reason for switching to seachem, as the RC wasn't mixing fully with the water and leaving a residue on the barrel and then crusting over and giving off an unpleasant scent

[Wall_Tank]

Reef Crystals has done this for years, I used it when I first started my tanks in 2004.   Although it was mainly Nitrates in the residue.  I had to constantly keep my container clean.   RSCP (old formula) did this at the end before they switched too.    I've been using SeaChem, while it takes a tad bit longer to dissolve, it has been mixing clean.

I guess I'm keeping my mixing tank out in the open, where I can observe it.

[micki]

Brian, did you switch over to ESV?  For those that use it, was it difficult to know how much of what to mix together?

[lazylivin]

Brian, did you switch over to ESV?  For those that use it, was it difficult to know how much of what to mix together?

No I haven't switched over to that yet. I may although I would prefer a dump and go salt mix so might try Paul's recommendation seachem first.

[micki]

No I haven't switched over to that yet. I may although I would prefer a dump and go salt mix so might try Paul's recommendation seachem first.

I would prefer a dump and go kind of salt too.  I'm extremely lazy when it comes to testing.  I don't know that I want to test the salt every time to make sure I have the correct amout of whatever in there.  I'll be curious to see how seachem does for you.

[lazylivin]

FYI - When I tested freshly made up water in the above bucket it had phosphates of 1.0. Earlier in this thread someone had made a recomendation to test freshly made mix, I think it was Mr. Fish. Maybe someone else. Anyway I didn't find this problem then. The reason is I didn't test it from this container. I have my RO/DI line split out to a 5 gallon bucket in addtion to the mixing drum. This bucket is used for when I need some clean water for cleaning cuvets and stuff like that. Since I didn't have any water in my drum at the time I added salt to the 5 gallon bucket and tested from there. It had Phosphate of 0. With this said I am guessing it was a specific batch or several batches of salt that caused this problem. Although the dry salt mix always looked the same.....White.

[slandis3]

Brian I have been using the new rscp on our tank with 0 issues. I do how ever once a month clean my mixing tank as part of my maintenance.

[lazylivin]

Brian I have been using the new rscp on our tank with 0 issues. I do how ever once a month clean my mixing tank as part of my maintenance.

Why do you have to clean your mixing tank once a month? What problems are you seeing in it? I have never before now had to clean my mixing container/drum.

[coral ranch]

I have to clean our mixing tank at Pet Solutions about once every 3 months.Calcium builds up on the bottom and sides and if you leave it to long it flakes off into the water. Once calcium deposits build up they can pull calcium out of you new make up water.

[Todd W.]

So the beginnings of this is a fine white slime that accumulates on the inside of your mixing barrel?