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Author Topic: Phosphate issue  (Read 11231 times)

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Offline kattz

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2011, 21:31:01 »
I talked with Brian on this earlier and this tank is about a year old, so now I'm stumped.  For some reason I thought it was around 4-5 years old.
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline HUNGER

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2011, 22:07:39 »
his 75 mite have been but he just got done doing his big tank swap
SIZE DOES MATTER

Offline slandis3

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2011, 22:41:45 »
Has anyone actually tested the water that comes out of a bag of "live sand"? I have a hard time believing anything good is alive in there.

Offline HUNGER

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2011, 22:53:43 »
oo i bet
SIZE DOES MATTER

Offline Todd W.

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2011, 08:35:53 »
Has anyone actually tested the water that comes out of a bag of "live sand"? I have a hard time believing anything good is alive in there.

Great idea... I've wondered the same about how something can be alive on the shelf... I theorize that the only thing may be bacteria in hibernation???

Offline Todd W.

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2011, 08:56:43 »
http://www.fishchannel.com/setups/saltwater/about-live-sand.aspx

<<The live component of the sand includes aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, forams, annelid worms, crustaceans (primarily isopods and amphipods) and, occasionally, tiny brittle stars. The grain size varies from very fine to chunky. I prefer a medium grade in which the grains are about the same size or slightly larger than a pinhead. I have found that the very fine grades may remain suspended because of water pumps, which can result in clogged external filters and destroyed impellers. On the other hand, large grades are more difficult for our clean-up crew to keep stirred up (more on this later). >>

Taking a look at some other groups like ours, the conventional wisdom is to ensure the date on the bag is very recent, like within a month (some say the shelf live is effectively 6 months).  Another person checked the Nitrates and Phosphates on a bag that they purchased and both were "really high".

There are several suggestions of purchasing high quality seeded 'grunge' from here http://www.garf.org/index.shtml . My assumption is that it would be fresh, but have never used their product.  Use it to seed dry sand that would be cheaper than 'live sand'.

Has anyone purchased or used GARF's offerings before?

Other suggestions are just use live rock dry sand and a pound or two of 'live wet sand' that a LFS has in a tank.   

If you are up to experimenting to give feedback to the group, I would really like to know if the GARF stuff is worth the purchase....

Just my $.02 while having coffee (my kind daughter made) and surfing the net




Offline lazylivin

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2011, 11:15:23 »
How much of the epoxy did you use?

Is the algae only growing in the main tank or is it growing in other tanks hooked to system B?

It is growing in all the tanks. I used about 15 large tubes of epoxy which are double the size of aquamend.

Here's a thought, and it's not an easy decision.  You may have already done it, but here goes.  You remember how I had to pull my tank down and clean up?  In looking at your tank, most of your corals have taken a heckuva hit. 

There's a cleaner solution that's reef safe that will clean any slime out of the plumbing, which may be contributing to your issue.  You can get it from Kim or online, and you can run it now to get ahead of the follow on recommendations.  I'm using it and it's working as advertised.  See link:
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/Waste_Away/Algae_Slime/Algae_Slime.html

Make up enough water to replace the system water in the B system.  I know this in itself will take a lot of work. 

Pull out your livestock and your corals that you can save, and put them in that quarantine tank of yours.

Pull ALL of the rock, and all of the sand.  Wipe out the tank, plumbing, etc. 

Put in four bags of new live sand, leave the rock out, and get the system going again. 

After 48 hours and water test OK, return the livestock.  Leave the rock out.

This is what I did, and 95% of my n03 and p04 problems went away immediately and have stayed away.  You could have "mud" under your substrate that is contributing to this, the substrate is leaching out phosphate, and any other issues that this will fix.  I know it sucks, but best I can think of.

Plumbing is all clear vinyl tubing (40 feet) no build up, can see through the tubing just fine. 3 of the tanks are bare bottom and there is nothing on the bottom. Main display has about 1" of sand which is less then a year old and i siphon about every third water change and all rock is lifted above the sand via mounts. Thanks for the input  though Kev, certinaly wan't to rule everything out. I am missing something that is causing the issues.


Have you tested your salt mix for phosphates? I know they all say nitrate and phosphate free, but I have read that some mixes still yield a decient phosphate reading  even though they claim this.

You may have answered this but have you recently changed any food or used any epoxy's on the tank?



I have tested fresh Reef Crystals Saltwater RO/DI mix and it is 0 on the Hannah Phosphate meter.  No change in food. Since the inception of the system 1 year ago I have feed  a total of 3/4 a package of ROD's food, one package of Mysis and about 1oz of Flake and 10 alage sheets.


That was my first thought.  you at 0 TDS and 0 phos out of your DI?

Yes I have a meter and alarm on output of the RO/DI unit that notifies anything other than 0.

Offline slandis3

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2011, 11:29:08 »
Brian I put about a half of a tube of aquamed in our tank and we got a small brown algae outbreak across the sand. I did 2 water changes and it went away. I wonder if that could be a large part of the problem. I would run to Lowes and get a stick of the stuff you used and set up a small tank of salt water with it in there and do some testing.

Offline lazylivin

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2011, 11:32:40 »
That is a GREAT idea! I am going to do that. I have a couple tubes left.

Offline Steve

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2011, 15:33:01 »
Has anyone actually tested the water that comes out of a bag of "live sand"? I have a hard time believing anything good is alive in there.

I have always wondered about that myself. I have used the GARF grunge, about 2 pounds in a 90 about 6 or 7 years ago. No scientific proof buy I believe that it helped seed my tank. Definately added some critters. Alot of micro stars.Brian I hope you get your problem solved, I too am having phophate issues but I believe mine is more from the tank and the sand being old. I know that my sps don't like it.

Offline lazylivin

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2011, 19:31:04 »
Kattz came by and spent the afternoon to hang out and we did a few tests.
1.) pulled a piece of the epoxy out of aquarium and cut it up into powder and mixed with a cup of tank water. Reading was .07. Just tank water is .05 that is an increase so I am guessing there is a possibility that it is a source of phosphates.
2.) took new uncured epoxy and dissolved in tank water and it was .64 (Kind of a silly test as it contains the curing agents that dissipate after cured)
3.) The long term test we have going is put a piece of cured epoxy in fresh mixed saltwater for a week and see if it leaches out just sitting.

Offline HUNGER

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2011, 19:46:52 »
o wow
SIZE DOES MATTER

Offline Boonjob

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #87 on: August 13, 2011, 19:47:44 »
Kattz came by and spent the afternoon to hang out and we did a few tests.
1.) pulled a piece of the epoxy out of aquarium and cut it up into powder and mixed with a cup of tank water. Reading was .07. Just tank water is .05 that is an increase so I am guessing there is a possibility that it is a source of phosphates.
2.) took new uncured epoxy and dissolved in tank water and it was .64 (Kind of a silly test as it contains the curing agents that dissipate after cured)
3.) The long term test we have going is put a piece of cured epoxy in fresh mixed saltwater for a week and see if it leaches out just sitting.

what kind of epoxy did you use?
God is great, Beer is good, and People are crazy...

Life is a beach, I'm just playing in the sand.


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Offline Reefpete

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #88 on: August 13, 2011, 21:10:37 »
Well Brian, as the Army tough me you always want to check the simple stuff first. Makes me wonder why you didn't check this in the first place before adding it to your display? Hope that this is the true problem and that it is an easy fix! Can't wait to see your setup!

Offline lazylivin

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #89 on: August 13, 2011, 21:29:07 »
I did check it. It says safe for potable water and once cures is inert + all the reef threads that say they have and are using it with no issue.

http://www.michiganreefers.com/forums/lighting-filtration-other-equipment/85625-coral-putty-safe-fix-stick-harveys-plumbers-epoxy-putty.html
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f11/marine-aquarium-help-129504.html
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1808676
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1512122

I haven't yet found any conclusive evidence to indicate this stuff contributing to the phosphate problem.  The true test is if the cured expoxy leaches anything into the water sample on it's own over the next couple weeks.

Offline Boonjob

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #90 on: August 13, 2011, 23:05:18 »
I did check it. It says safe for potable water and once cures is inert + all the reef threads that say they have and are using it with no issue.

http://www.michiganreefers.com/forums/lighting-filtration-other-equipment/85625-coral-putty-safe-fix-stick-harveys-plumbers-epoxy-putty.html
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f11/marine-aquarium-help-129504.html
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1808676
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1512122

I haven't yet found any conclusive evidence to indicate this stuff contributing to the phosphate problem.  The true test is if the cured expoxy leaches anything into the water sample on it's own over the next couple weeks.

Yeah almost all epoxys are gonna release phosphates/trates until cured.
God is great, Beer is good, and People are crazy...

Life is a beach, I'm just playing in the sand.


http://www.ustream.tv/channel/boonjob-s-reef-tank

Offline slandis3

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #91 on: August 13, 2011, 23:09:46 »
Brian I am thinking that maybe some of this never fully cured and its breaking down and releasing junk into the water.

Offline HUNGER

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2011, 00:46:34 »
the epoxy i did the group buy on suck it would brake apart after a week or to  i stoped using it
SIZE DOES MATTER

Offline Reefpete

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #93 on: August 14, 2011, 07:47:36 »
I did check it. It says safe for potable water and once cures is inert + all the reef threads that say they have and are using it with no issue.

http://www.michiganreefers.com/forums/lighting-filtration-other-equipment/85625-coral-putty-safe-fix-stick-harveys-plumbers-epoxy-putty.html
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f11/marine-aquarium-help-129504.html
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1808676
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1512122

I haven't yet found any conclusive evidence to indicate this stuff contributing to the phosphate problem.  The true test is if the cured expoxy leaches anything into the water sample on it's own over the next couple weeks.
Sorry Brian, that didn't come across the way it sounded in my head.

Offline lazylivin

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #94 on: August 14, 2011, 12:13:49 »
It is all good Pete. You were right I should not have used something that was not more known in the reef hobby.

Offline HUNGER

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2011, 12:18:56 »
we all make mistakes we just need to learn from them
SIZE DOES MATTER

Offline kattz

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #96 on: August 14, 2011, 18:31:17 »
the epoxy i did the group buy on suck it would brake apart after a week or to  i stoped using it

Mine I got from you has been OK.
90g SPS and LPS reef tank, 35g sump, ceramic rock by The Alternative Reef, Neptune Apex w 2 X EB8's, Moonlight module, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8 X 39W T5's, Octopus Extreme 160 skimmer, PM Kalkwasser Reactor, 2 X Vortech MP40's, Geo 618 Ca reactor


Various thriving montipora, acropora, stylopora, wellsophyllia, blastomussa, hammer, anchor, and frogspawn, lobophyllia, rhizotrychus, pavona, scroll, and pagoda SPS and LPS corals, but no fish because I was too stupid to QT...

Offline HUNGER

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2011, 19:12:30 »
thats good one of the tubes worked fine  the other 3 sucked
SIZE DOES MATTER

Offline lazylivin

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #98 on: September 01, 2011, 21:24:12 »
Source of Phosphates found! Tank is looking good again, corals are rebounding and I happy. I will get a picture of the issue and post up soon.

Offline HUNGER

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Re: Phosphate issue
« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2011, 21:27:16 »
thats great what was it the rock
SIZE DOES MATTER

 

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